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Army Chaplains, Any background on this?
http://www.religionnews.com/2015/07/07/will-thor-join-army-believers-still-limbo/
http://www.religionnews.com/2015/07/07/will-thor-join-army-believers-still-limbo/
Chaplain
Religion
Army
Battalion Chaplain
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 9
2
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TSgt Joshua Copeland, I've seen a lot of strange things on dog tags over the years. Jedi ... Pastafarian ... Klingon ... Church of the Sub-Genius (praise Bob!) Heck, my own tags say I'm a Reformed Druid. (Texas is not known for trees, so Reformed Druids are allowed to pray to bushes.)
I personally don't think there needs to be Heathen Chaplains, any more than there needs to be Humanist Chaplains, Pastafarian Chaplains, or Reformed Druid Chaplains. Chaplains are trained to give neutral services, and that should be enough. (And no, I am not trivializing people who really do believe in Thor. Just because I'm having fun doesn't mean they are too. Besides, I'm partial to Uller, the god of skiing, archery, hunting, and known to be quite promiscuous.)
Seriously, as long as someone's choice doesn't mean special privileges, or someone else paying so they can have their choice, I see no problem with it. My problem is always with those who claim a choice, but expect me (or perhaps the US taxpayer) to fund their choice.
I personally don't think there needs to be Heathen Chaplains, any more than there needs to be Humanist Chaplains, Pastafarian Chaplains, or Reformed Druid Chaplains. Chaplains are trained to give neutral services, and that should be enough. (And no, I am not trivializing people who really do believe in Thor. Just because I'm having fun doesn't mean they are too. Besides, I'm partial to Uller, the god of skiing, archery, hunting, and known to be quite promiscuous.)
Seriously, as long as someone's choice doesn't mean special privileges, or someone else paying so they can have their choice, I see no problem with it. My problem is always with those who claim a choice, but expect me (or perhaps the US taxpayer) to fund their choice.
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SGM (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath, I don't understand what there is to be confused about. As I understand the way the military approves chaplaincies, you have to have a ThM or higher, from a recognized Seminary, which has to have some body in authority over the Seminary. (And who knows - maybe the rules have changed. Maybe an MDiv is acceptable now. But that doesn't change the rest of the requirements.)
You've said over and over that you don't have the recognized Seminary or a body in authority, but that you have some alternative which you think should be accepted. It's fine for you to think that, but it's like sticking your head in the sand to know you don't meet the requirements and think you should get your way regardless.
I understand Alvin York had the same problem. When drafted, he tried to claim as a conscientious objector. His claim was denied, because his church wasn't a part of a recognized denomination. And that's the respect thing. As long as the only think people see of your faith is a small group who meets in your living room to make the sign of the Hammer over their ale, (or would that be mead?) you aren't going to become a denomination.
The path is laid out. All you have to do is follow it, and you'll get your way. But asking for a short cut isn't the way to get respect.
I've said before, and I'll say again. I hope you get a code for your faith. But I don't think that we'll see heathen chaplains any time soon. And I don't think we should, until you have a seminary and a body in authority over it.
You've said over and over that you don't have the recognized Seminary or a body in authority, but that you have some alternative which you think should be accepted. It's fine for you to think that, but it's like sticking your head in the sand to know you don't meet the requirements and think you should get your way regardless.
I understand Alvin York had the same problem. When drafted, he tried to claim as a conscientious objector. His claim was denied, because his church wasn't a part of a recognized denomination. And that's the respect thing. As long as the only think people see of your faith is a small group who meets in your living room to make the sign of the Hammer over their ale, (or would that be mead?) you aren't going to become a denomination.
The path is laid out. All you have to do is follow it, and you'll get your way. But asking for a short cut isn't the way to get respect.
I've said before, and I'll say again. I hope you get a code for your faith. But I don't think that we'll see heathen chaplains any time soon. And I don't think we should, until you have a seminary and a body in authority over it.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SGM (Join to see) -
"You've said over and over that you don't have the recognized Seminary or a body in authority, but that you have some alternative which you think should be accepted."
Ahh, I see where the confusion is here. We do not have a universal Heathen seminary. That is correct. We do have programs that meet our own religious needs, and that work for us outside of the military context. However, we do have heathens that have done programs that meet the regulations. A soldier shared those with me the other day, I'll pull out the relevant paragraph that refers to the degree required.
DOD Instruction NUMBER 1304.28
6.1.4.
The RMP is educationally qualified for appointment as a chaplain.
The educationally qualified applicant shall possess a baccalaureate degree with not less than 120 semester hours (180 quarter hours) from a qualifying educational institution.
The DoDI 1304.28, June 11, 2004 Change 3,
educationally qualified applicant shall also possess a post baccalaureate graduate degree in the field of theological or related studies from a qualifying educational institution. A qualifying graduate degree program shall require no fewer than 72 semester hours (108 quarter hours) of graduate-level work.
Related studies may include graduate courses in pastoral counseling, social work, religious administration, and similar disciplines when one-half of the earned graduate credits include topics in general religion, world religions, the practice of religion, theology, religious philosophy, religious ethics, and/or the foundational writings from the applicant’s religious tradition.
Again, I'm not asking for anyone to not meet these requirements. We have soldiers that meet them already. No one is asking for a short-cut. We are asking for a faith code.
"You've said over and over that you don't have the recognized Seminary or a body in authority, but that you have some alternative which you think should be accepted."
Ahh, I see where the confusion is here. We do not have a universal Heathen seminary. That is correct. We do have programs that meet our own religious needs, and that work for us outside of the military context. However, we do have heathens that have done programs that meet the regulations. A soldier shared those with me the other day, I'll pull out the relevant paragraph that refers to the degree required.
DOD Instruction NUMBER 1304.28
6.1.4.
The RMP is educationally qualified for appointment as a chaplain.
The educationally qualified applicant shall possess a baccalaureate degree with not less than 120 semester hours (180 quarter hours) from a qualifying educational institution.
The DoDI 1304.28, June 11, 2004 Change 3,
educationally qualified applicant shall also possess a post baccalaureate graduate degree in the field of theological or related studies from a qualifying educational institution. A qualifying graduate degree program shall require no fewer than 72 semester hours (108 quarter hours) of graduate-level work.
Related studies may include graduate courses in pastoral counseling, social work, religious administration, and similar disciplines when one-half of the earned graduate credits include topics in general religion, world religions, the practice of religion, theology, religious philosophy, religious ethics, and/or the foundational writings from the applicant’s religious tradition.
Again, I'm not asking for anyone to not meet these requirements. We have soldiers that meet them already. No one is asking for a short-cut. We are asking for a faith code.
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SGM (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath, again I support you getting a faith code. And maybe the regulations have changed well away from what I remember. I did retire a few years ago.
I wonder how many chaplains there are in the Army? If I remember correctly, the force is about 700,000. If I had to guess, I'd figure there must be a fairly small number of chaplains ... perhaps 1000 at the most? Assuming your estimate of heathen numbers is correct, you would reasonably be entitled to ONE for the entire Army. Where would he be stationed? If there are 10 of you at Fort Hood, and 15 at Fort Benning, and 12 at Ft Bragg, who gets served? For that matter, if I am correct and the greatest need is overseas, do we keep him permanently in a combat zone, perhaps flying from one FOB to another with the mail?
Look I'm not trying to change your views or dump on your religion. I'm trying to be a realist. And the reality is that you have to find some way to deal with the very high likelihood that even if you get your own faith code and a single chaplain, your chances of actually seeing him more than once in your military career are quite low. So you'll be back to what you are doing right now, being a lay leader for your faith. Beyond getting a faith code, which I agree with, I don't think things are going to change noticeably.
But whether I'm right, or you are right, or neither of us are right, I have no ability to change things for you. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
I wonder how many chaplains there are in the Army? If I remember correctly, the force is about 700,000. If I had to guess, I'd figure there must be a fairly small number of chaplains ... perhaps 1000 at the most? Assuming your estimate of heathen numbers is correct, you would reasonably be entitled to ONE for the entire Army. Where would he be stationed? If there are 10 of you at Fort Hood, and 15 at Fort Benning, and 12 at Ft Bragg, who gets served? For that matter, if I am correct and the greatest need is overseas, do we keep him permanently in a combat zone, perhaps flying from one FOB to another with the mail?
Look I'm not trying to change your views or dump on your religion. I'm trying to be a realist. And the reality is that you have to find some way to deal with the very high likelihood that even if you get your own faith code and a single chaplain, your chances of actually seeing him more than once in your military career are quite low. So you'll be back to what you are doing right now, being a lay leader for your faith. Beyond getting a faith code, which I agree with, I don't think things are going to change noticeably.
But whether I'm right, or you are right, or neither of us are right, I have no ability to change things for you. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SGM (Join to see) -
Sure. That Chaplain will be assigned to do his job in a unit, and he'll do it for all soldiers, regardless of their faith, as every Chaplain does. The Army has like 7 Rabbi's, Chaplain Weiss is an excellent example of a Chaplain whom can work with anyone well. I think that is an excellent role model for any Chaplain of a minority faith to follow.
The faith code is the goal. The Chaplain thing is an outcome of the goal, not a goal in itself.
Whoever is in charge of the request, I hope stumbles across this thread and approves it. That's all I'm saying. :-)
Sure. That Chaplain will be assigned to do his job in a unit, and he'll do it for all soldiers, regardless of their faith, as every Chaplain does. The Army has like 7 Rabbi's, Chaplain Weiss is an excellent example of a Chaplain whom can work with anyone well. I think that is an excellent role model for any Chaplain of a minority faith to follow.
The faith code is the goal. The Chaplain thing is an outcome of the goal, not a goal in itself.
Whoever is in charge of the request, I hope stumbles across this thread and approves it. That's all I'm saying. :-)
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SGT (Join to see)-
You and I seem to have a very different view of what Heathenry allows, and doesn't allow.
You and I seem to have a very different view of what Heathenry allows, and doesn't allow.
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SGT (Join to see)
I never said anything about allow. in fact I know nothing that it truly forbids, but that is another discussion. My questions was why is recognition (from the Army) important to you?
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SPC Joshua Heath
SGT (Join to see) -
That is a good question. It is important to me for several reasons. One, it is important because it helps support the religious rights of heathens in the future (you can see the article for some of the items this request will touch). Two, I began this request assuming it would be a simple paperwork request that would be immediately approved since it didn't negatively impact anyone. In the 6 years we've been pushing this, its become a personal mission to make this change happen. When given a task, and the tools to complete the task, I will do everything possible to finish that task.
That is a good question. It is important to me for several reasons. One, it is important because it helps support the religious rights of heathens in the future (you can see the article for some of the items this request will touch). Two, I began this request assuming it would be a simple paperwork request that would be immediately approved since it didn't negatively impact anyone. In the 6 years we've been pushing this, its become a personal mission to make this change happen. When given a task, and the tools to complete the task, I will do everything possible to finish that task.
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I've never understood a military that openly accepts and encourages "the faith of the lamb" but doesn't recognize "the faith of the warrior"... It would make more sense if the positions were reversed...
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I thought that was allowed already. It should be. Is it Norse that is already allowed?
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Would this include the rest of the avengers? Do they worship Loki as well?
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SPC Joshua Heath
SPC Nathan Freeman -
Cool. I wasn't sure if your joke was from a place of knowledge or a place of ignorance. Some people don't seem to realize that Thor is based on anything older than a comic book character.
Cool. I wasn't sure if your joke was from a place of knowledge or a place of ignorance. Some people don't seem to realize that Thor is based on anything older than a comic book character.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
Some would say that dragons are mythological. I think they were real. Every culture around the world speaks of them including the Bible (perhaps metaphorically but perhaps literally). What do you think? CPT L S SPC Joshua Heath congrats on promotion CAPTAIN L S
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SPC Joshua Heath
SPC Nathan Freeman -
I personally think people found dinosaur bones and assumed they were legendary beasts that are equivalent to dragons. As most myths, there is a core of subjective truth, but a lot of tales that have grown up around them as well.
I personally think people found dinosaur bones and assumed they were legendary beasts that are equivalent to dragons. As most myths, there is a core of subjective truth, but a lot of tales that have grown up around them as well.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
Consider that from Europe to east Asia, these dragons flew and spoke the local language. They also looked fairly similar. Certainly some fiction was written. Possibly some history too
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You know, these types of discussions are never easy...you really can't say much without saying too much, but I'll try. First off, let's make a clear distinction between someone's sincere religious beliefs and what amounts to someone looking to prove a point. I'm not suggesting that the solider in question is affiliating himself with Asatru simply because it's "cool" to claim you believe in a warrior based religion with a plethora of cross connections to everything from pop-culture to "death metal"...but I'm sure it sounds pretty tough around the barracks. "No really First Sergeant, I can't pull duty this weekend...I have to ritually pass around the mead and honor the gods (sumbel) with my bros!" On the other hand, is that really any different from a Catholic service member wearing ashes during a uniform inspection? At the end of the day, and as a sincere believer and follower of the Christian faith, I fear we've made freedom of religion little more than a political tool. Frankly, things just work better in a military setting the less "unique" each member makes themselves from the whole...religion was rarely an issue in the past because most everyone was some flavor of Abrahamic faith (who can basically agree to disagree as long as they don't try to kill each other), or not faith affiliated. I think I can count the number of Buddhists, Taoists, etc. that I knew on one hand or less. Just one of many "hot potatoes" that threatens to make us less of a cohesive body as time goes on...and may eventually lead to exactly what the framers of the Constitution didn't want-suppression or sponsorship of one faith over another.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Lieutenant ,
You're undoubtedly an intelligent person. Obviously, you've researched the history of the biblical Abraham and noted that he was in all historical context, likely a Sumerian from Ur. That is encouraging because it means you also could not have missed the connections between this ancient pagan society and one of it's more well known works, The Epic of Gilgamesh. Undoubtedly, you've also invested the time to research the interesting parallels between this ancient poem and the biblical account of Noah.
If you've gone that far, you may also have compared the ancient origins of Egyptian mythology and noted the interesting intersections of Semitic cosmology. You may have noticed that non-bibilical accounts corroborate the Bronze Age invasion of modern day Palestine by Semitic peoples...and the rise of the Judean kings, many of whom followed pagan gods common to the region.
Not to make this response a "novel"...but I would encourage you to compare the symbology of the Aten, the Ankh and the Star of David. Imagine the implications of an inverse trinity represented by the triangle pointed upwards and one downwards...describing a three part relationship between spirit, mind and body, reflective of the nature of ancient monotheistic concepts of the divine.
I say all that to offer that "modern" Christianity isn't a stand-alone emerging in the First Century AD, but the product of well documented Bronze Age Semitic cosmology and theology that coalesced (according to ancient teaching) with a single man-Abraham. The three major religions of the world all trace their ecumenical origins to him. The many various divergences from that point are traceable and normally coincide with some "reform" movement attempting to go back to original doctrine.
What often concerns me about more recent iterations of ALL religions is a "pick and choose" approach; Dispense with the less socially acceptable parts, add in a few comfortable re-castings of primary figures...and voila! Instant (and easy) answers.
Of the many friends I have that claim to be "pagan", I know none who would advocate many of the sacraments of the older religions they derive their identity from...This is what (in my humble opinion) differentiates "Heathens" from more "mainstream" religions. The unavoidable assumption is that it's more about finding a lack of satisfaction with the traditional, and a less than devout fascination with a belief system that enforces human tendencies...rather than opposing them, as is central to more common belief systems.
At the end of the day, and without any disrespect, all I can ask any "pagan" or "Heathen" is if they truly believe in the nuances of their faith...because like the beliefs I hold true, they may often conflict with modern society. There are compromises I cannot make because of what I believe, and consequences associated with that unwillingness to "conform". If that's true of their beliefs as well, then at some point, we fall into different "camps"...that presents difficulties for a military environment, and all I ask is that the proponents of these causes be sure it's worth the potential cost.
You're undoubtedly an intelligent person. Obviously, you've researched the history of the biblical Abraham and noted that he was in all historical context, likely a Sumerian from Ur. That is encouraging because it means you also could not have missed the connections between this ancient pagan society and one of it's more well known works, The Epic of Gilgamesh. Undoubtedly, you've also invested the time to research the interesting parallels between this ancient poem and the biblical account of Noah.
If you've gone that far, you may also have compared the ancient origins of Egyptian mythology and noted the interesting intersections of Semitic cosmology. You may have noticed that non-bibilical accounts corroborate the Bronze Age invasion of modern day Palestine by Semitic peoples...and the rise of the Judean kings, many of whom followed pagan gods common to the region.
Not to make this response a "novel"...but I would encourage you to compare the symbology of the Aten, the Ankh and the Star of David. Imagine the implications of an inverse trinity represented by the triangle pointed upwards and one downwards...describing a three part relationship between spirit, mind and body, reflective of the nature of ancient monotheistic concepts of the divine.
I say all that to offer that "modern" Christianity isn't a stand-alone emerging in the First Century AD, but the product of well documented Bronze Age Semitic cosmology and theology that coalesced (according to ancient teaching) with a single man-Abraham. The three major religions of the world all trace their ecumenical origins to him. The many various divergences from that point are traceable and normally coincide with some "reform" movement attempting to go back to original doctrine.
What often concerns me about more recent iterations of ALL religions is a "pick and choose" approach; Dispense with the less socially acceptable parts, add in a few comfortable re-castings of primary figures...and voila! Instant (and easy) answers.
Of the many friends I have that claim to be "pagan", I know none who would advocate many of the sacraments of the older religions they derive their identity from...This is what (in my humble opinion) differentiates "Heathens" from more "mainstream" religions. The unavoidable assumption is that it's more about finding a lack of satisfaction with the traditional, and a less than devout fascination with a belief system that enforces human tendencies...rather than opposing them, as is central to more common belief systems.
At the end of the day, and without any disrespect, all I can ask any "pagan" or "Heathen" is if they truly believe in the nuances of their faith...because like the beliefs I hold true, they may often conflict with modern society. There are compromises I cannot make because of what I believe, and consequences associated with that unwillingness to "conform". If that's true of their beliefs as well, then at some point, we fall into different "camps"...that presents difficulties for a military environment, and all I ask is that the proponents of these causes be sure it's worth the potential cost.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I don't know that I'm "smart"...a "smart a@$" sometimes maybe.
For what it's worth, I was raised in Christianity; the whole church/private school bit...you get the image. I saw a lot of folks using it for their own purposes, making things up as they went along...but I also had some great experiences revolving around my faith. When I left home to join the Navy at 17.8 years old, that was my first exposure to "other" ideologies...it shook everything I believed to the core. Still, I didn't see enough to convince me the whole fabric of my faith was made of tissue paper. I started researching-a lot. It took years, but eventually, I found that logically, there has to be more than random chance...God makes a lot more sense than some people want Him to.
Next, I delved into the doctrines of my faith and compared it with others. What surprised me was how often opponents of Christianity pulled references to "original" theologies Christian tradition supposedly "stole"...and how often it really appears those concepts evolved from original concepts dated to the same time frame the Christian Bible would place them.
In short, the more you dig...the more you find compelling evidence that Judeo-Christian doctrines date back to the beginning of civilization. This commonality was enough to convince me whatever mankind originally believed...it was based on the same principles contained in the Bible.
That creates some complications for "warriors" because those same teachings are very clear on some issues that "rub" with the spiritual aspect of other warrior societies. As a Christian, I can't support a war of conquest...it's got to be about sacrifice for the sake of peace, or I'm really serving some variant of vanity. On the other hand, I think Christianity was ultimately adopted by the Norse (see recent findings of medieval viking swords bearing the Icthus) because of the comparisons contained in spiritual "warfare" against evil. I know that for myself and other Christian veterans I know...our service came down to placing ourselves in harm's way so that conquest, genocide and brutality couldn't stamp out peace. I'd like to think some late-period Roman officers found similar comfort while serving in a largely pantheistic army.
For what it's worth, I was raised in Christianity; the whole church/private school bit...you get the image. I saw a lot of folks using it for their own purposes, making things up as they went along...but I also had some great experiences revolving around my faith. When I left home to join the Navy at 17.8 years old, that was my first exposure to "other" ideologies...it shook everything I believed to the core. Still, I didn't see enough to convince me the whole fabric of my faith was made of tissue paper. I started researching-a lot. It took years, but eventually, I found that logically, there has to be more than random chance...God makes a lot more sense than some people want Him to.
Next, I delved into the doctrines of my faith and compared it with others. What surprised me was how often opponents of Christianity pulled references to "original" theologies Christian tradition supposedly "stole"...and how often it really appears those concepts evolved from original concepts dated to the same time frame the Christian Bible would place them.
In short, the more you dig...the more you find compelling evidence that Judeo-Christian doctrines date back to the beginning of civilization. This commonality was enough to convince me whatever mankind originally believed...it was based on the same principles contained in the Bible.
That creates some complications for "warriors" because those same teachings are very clear on some issues that "rub" with the spiritual aspect of other warrior societies. As a Christian, I can't support a war of conquest...it's got to be about sacrifice for the sake of peace, or I'm really serving some variant of vanity. On the other hand, I think Christianity was ultimately adopted by the Norse (see recent findings of medieval viking swords bearing the Icthus) because of the comparisons contained in spiritual "warfare" against evil. I know that for myself and other Christian veterans I know...our service came down to placing ourselves in harm's way so that conquest, genocide and brutality couldn't stamp out peace. I'd like to think some late-period Roman officers found similar comfort while serving in a largely pantheistic army.
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SPC Joshua Heath
LCDR (Join to see) -
Sir, there are some people that claim to be Heathens/Asatru that are clearly the death metal crowd. We jokingly call these people Metaltru.
That being said, there are thousands of heathens that are devout believers who could care less about being counter-cultural. Heathenry has elements that encourage being a good and positive member of ones community, we volunteer, we serve in the military, and we do all we can to care for those around us. Being counter-cultural is not the reason for most of us to be heathens. Some, but there are some counter-cultural types in all groups.
Sir, there are some people that claim to be Heathens/Asatru that are clearly the death metal crowd. We jokingly call these people Metaltru.
That being said, there are thousands of heathens that are devout believers who could care less about being counter-cultural. Heathenry has elements that encourage being a good and positive member of ones community, we volunteer, we serve in the military, and we do all we can to care for those around us. Being counter-cultural is not the reason for most of us to be heathens. Some, but there are some counter-cultural types in all groups.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SGT (Join to see) -
This request has been done the quiet way for several years. We are making noise now because we've been ignored, misled, and denied a simple request. At this point, I will literally do whatever I can legally to make this request happen.
This request has been done the quiet way for several years. We are making noise now because we've been ignored, misled, and denied a simple request. At this point, I will literally do whatever I can legally to make this request happen.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath - Why? What is it you are trying to accomplish, and how come you are trying to make yourself acknowledge when this doesn't stick in line with your faith? It is only so you can "stick it to the man"? Because I am sure you realize any and all doctrine that could be provided to you by the army would be a new and invented one, not an inherited one.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath - What is it you want to see done? You want your own chaplain, is that it? You want to be special so your official papers claim something that no heathen would care for.. or is it purely a self-entitlement issue?
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