Posted on Apr 5, 2015
How did EOF rules help or hurt your unit down range?
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Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
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Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
//
Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Posted in these groups: 
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 90
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EOF helped more than it hurt, these rules are all about preventing an escalation of violence. I like the logical structure and forced process, but I am that type of thinker.
Most of the situations we dealt with were problems with culture and communication. The times when it hurt are when we are in a straight up VBIED or ground assault and you react more slowly because you are trying to figure it out.
The most frustrating part is the constant hindsight review and then Monday morning quarterbacking. While we want to learn from our experiences, we must give the widest latitude to soldiers.
EOF rules means as a leader or a soldier you have difficult choices and these decisions have consequences. I can only reflect back and have confidence I did right as best I knew how.
Most of the situations we dealt with were problems with culture and communication. The times when it hurt are when we are in a straight up VBIED or ground assault and you react more slowly because you are trying to figure it out.
The most frustrating part is the constant hindsight review and then Monday morning quarterbacking. While we want to learn from our experiences, we must give the widest latitude to soldiers.
EOF rules means as a leader or a soldier you have difficult choices and these decisions have consequences. I can only reflect back and have confidence I did right as best I knew how.
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It's fascinating that there is rules in war. I could go on and on about how this kind of bullshit was exactly that. Bullshit.
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By CPL Ryan Miller less than a minute ago:Fuck the police duty shit the military is not a day care War is War people die that's the way it is...
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Nukes argument is suicidal because the people who propose that, do not consider escalation or even the fall-out, plus Russia is waiting.
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In our DetOps mission, we had everything from verbal correction to loss of privileges to tasers to LTL munitions, to lethal munitions.
A clear understanding of EOF was critical, and it it helped ensure that we were able to FULLY justify any actions necessary involved in maintaining order in the TIF.
A clear understanding of EOF was critical, and it it helped ensure that we were able to FULLY justify any actions necessary involved in maintaining order in the TIF.
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More often than not I felt it hurt my unit in OEF. Having been there recently 13-14. I understand the need for EOF but felt it was mostly dictated by those far above the everyday ground. Being told our convoys can't inturrupt the flow of traffic or not allowing any stand off from local nationalvehicles and the convoy.. Certain led to some more concerning times..
That said I also had incidents where cycling a EOF assisted in de escalation of a situations that could have ended a lot worse. Of course those times were more often than not involving ANA or ANP rather than the enemy.
That said I also had incidents where cycling a EOF assisted in de escalation of a situations that could have ended a lot worse. Of course those times were more often than not involving ANA or ANP rather than the enemy.
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I was on a CET team my first and second tour, because I was the radio guy. On my first tour I manned the M2 50 cal quite a bit. I always felt that the EOF and ROE were on point. We used pin flares quite a bit. Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot is what we went by. If they didn't respond to us or pointed any kind of weapon we could engage without question.
My second tour was a different story. We pretty much couldn't fire on anything until fired at. We had to count each and every round after missions, I hated it. Cars would just hop into the middle of convoy and ride along. Luckily we never got hit by a VBIED, but I'm sure if we would have that the EOF/ROE/TTP would have been to blame.
I certainly didn't want to hurt an innocent person or worse create 5 more terrorists from one dead good guy.
Josh
My second tour was a different story. We pretty much couldn't fire on anything until fired at. We had to count each and every round after missions, I hated it. Cars would just hop into the middle of convoy and ride along. Luckily we never got hit by a VBIED, but I'm sure if we would have that the EOF/ROE/TTP would have been to blame.
I certainly didn't want to hurt an innocent person or worse create 5 more terrorists from one dead good guy.
Josh
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Understand that rules are in place to protect US soldiers from themselves and enemy combatants, but it always seems that US soldiers are the only ones held to a moral code of conduct especially with social media today where the slightest incident can go viral. It is like fighting with one arm tied behind your back.
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EOF ROE or Amy other acronyms that mean the same or similar to things are important with that being said the soldier on the ground has to use their best judgment. The ROE should be set by someone who has been in combat and understand what happens and why. I always told my soldiers it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six and you do not have to die to be a hero.
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I think that EOF policies are a necessary thing. Especially in the modern wars we fight where the enemy is not easily identified. Every time we killed the wrong person overseas it was used to recruit more terrorists. I thought the OP was absolutely correct to say comments like "kill them all" or "nuke the Mideast" are oversimplifications.
Ultimately we'd do better to choose our fights better and avoid messy wars that have no clear goals or endpoint in sight.
Ultimately we'd do better to choose our fights better and avoid messy wars that have no clear goals or endpoint in sight.
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