Posted on Apr 5, 2015
How did EOF rules help or hurt your unit down range?
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Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
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Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
//
Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Posted in these groups: 
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 90
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While I never served in a forward unit, I did serve on a nuclear missile quick reaction base during the cold war in Germany in the Army. And my opinion is as follows: If we were to put the old adage to work, "All's fair in love and war." And not demonstrate a pacifist attitude. If we were to line up about 100 ISIS members dress right dress, blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs. Then film them as we hack their heads off, then leave their bodies laying in a clump somewhere in some camel dung laden sand pile. Then post this on Youtube for the entire world to gawk at. Proudly proclaim that we are responsible for the act. And then give every member that lopped someone's dome off, a freaking medal for participating. Well then, I believe that they would take us a lot more seriously and they might put a damper on their terrorists acts... They know we are pacifists and they know our only retaliation might be some indirect airstrike that "might" knock out only a handful of them at a time. Or we may even put more of our troops in harms way. Which I would hate to see. Another thought might be arming the rest of the Muslim world to the teeth and then ask them if just maybe they might be tired of this handful of individuals giving their supposed "peaceful" religion a black eye? If they are then maybe they might eliminate our problem for us....
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In 2007 I was in Al-Rashid, Baghdad EOF, ROE, and PID was easy it mitigated a lot of innocent people getting hurt. A short time later we went to the Diyala province (which was like a jungle placed into Iraq) EOF, PID was pretty much a hindrance to us.
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SP5 Brian Kent
What's this unverified veteran shit. 2/11 acr bad kissingen Germany eagle horse 5/16 ft Riley ks. Devil rangers
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My squad spent lots of time outside the wire. There were many times the ROE's prevented us from engaging enemy forces while we were under direct fire and caught in the open with nowhere to go. Having solid ground rules that are common sense will always be beneficial, but the ROE's pushed out by the current administration endangered more of our guys than anything else. Anybody who's been in their fair share of gunfights will tell you the same. Everybody else that says differently is an idiot
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Very fine line in my case, but I was part of OIF 1 & 2, before things really unraveled. That being said however, our ROE was so ridiculous (enemy must have round in chamber and be shooting at us to engage, etc) that despite perseverance of our unit integrity and the professionalism exuded by my fellow Falcons, there were moments of hesitation where minus arbitrary ROE details would likely have not existed.
It seemed to most if not all of us that somewhere looming over us was a O-4/5/6 who was more concerned with their career than the lives of us grunts and the POG's supporting us, when all of us in uniform should have been far away from the politics behind everything and concentrating on our military mission.
It seemed to most if not all of us that somewhere looming over us was a O-4/5/6 who was more concerned with their career than the lives of us grunts and the POG's supporting us, when all of us in uniform should have been far away from the politics behind everything and concentrating on our military mission.
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There definitely needs to be EOF rules in place. Without them too many innocent civilians would be wounded or killed. I believe a lot of Soldiers get confused when talking about EOF and ROE (Rules of Engagement). EOF saved the life of a young kid. I almost shot this kid because I thought he was throwing a geenade but it was really a rock. My 1SG saw this and stopped me. The ROE needs to be revaluation because I do believe when they are too strict, Soldiers die. I was engaged by a sniper and could not return fire because I did not have positive identification of my target. I knew where he was but couldn't see him. Had I fired and hit a civilian then I could have been charged. Luckily I was a moving target, but the next Soldier may not have been so lucky. Five shots went by my head close enough to feel the heat off the rounds. ROE is important but there needs to be some room for judgment calls. The humanitarian side of the mission can interfere with the ultimate goal of winning the war.
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SGT Stephen Boldrey
Ya like the family members during 9,11 don't forget those innocent civilians on all them planes
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I read several post before I made my decision on what to post. Here is my post.
EOF is escalation of force. It is the minimum force necessary to stop a hostile act or threat or even a perceived hostile at or threat. It ranges from shouting at them to shooting at them. But it gives you the tools to make a decision on what should the force be to stop this threat.
Ex. Was on a convoy that a vehicle broke down. We got out to pull security. I was at an intersection when a car was speeding toward me. First reaction was oh s**t shoot this *cussword*. But then I raised my weapon and watched him slam on the breaks throw it in reverse and speed away. My first reaction was to protect everyone behind me but my training ended it without a loss of life.
PID is Positive Identification. Why would you not want to positively identify the hostile act or threat? That is just shooting blindly at something you think might be bad.
We are not a country that empowers service members to act like barbarians. We have rules that make us professional Soldiers. You can be grunt, POG bias as you want. But what separates professional Soldier from terrorist is that we follow rules. You may get angry and emotional and want to destroy the world but in the end what separates you from them is you don't. You destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat and you do with in a manner that is just and right.
The people that hate the ROE, EOF, PID, etc.., are ones that either don't understand it, or ones who's command was so busy trying to save face made bad decisions and hid behind the ROE. ROE has never limited your right to self-defense. And the US definition of self-defense is very lax compared to other countries.
Did the EOF help, yes if it was used correctly, same way a M4 or Leatherman would if used correctly.
EOF is escalation of force. It is the minimum force necessary to stop a hostile act or threat or even a perceived hostile at or threat. It ranges from shouting at them to shooting at them. But it gives you the tools to make a decision on what should the force be to stop this threat.
Ex. Was on a convoy that a vehicle broke down. We got out to pull security. I was at an intersection when a car was speeding toward me. First reaction was oh s**t shoot this *cussword*. But then I raised my weapon and watched him slam on the breaks throw it in reverse and speed away. My first reaction was to protect everyone behind me but my training ended it without a loss of life.
PID is Positive Identification. Why would you not want to positively identify the hostile act or threat? That is just shooting blindly at something you think might be bad.
We are not a country that empowers service members to act like barbarians. We have rules that make us professional Soldiers. You can be grunt, POG bias as you want. But what separates professional Soldier from terrorist is that we follow rules. You may get angry and emotional and want to destroy the world but in the end what separates you from them is you don't. You destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat and you do with in a manner that is just and right.
The people that hate the ROE, EOF, PID, etc.., are ones that either don't understand it, or ones who's command was so busy trying to save face made bad decisions and hid behind the ROE. ROE has never limited your right to self-defense. And the US definition of self-defense is very lax compared to other countries.
Did the EOF help, yes if it was used correctly, same way a M4 or Leatherman would if used correctly.
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I was a British Army Combat Infantryman in 2003. The ROE were constantly changing depending on the mission we were engaging in. The ROE ended up hurting my unit because it went from engage everyone that was a threat, to identify the specific threat. I lost 3 RMP's in my AO and we lost a senior CPT from my unit to an IED in another companies AO. The current operation in Iraq needs to have ROE that will keep the troops safe and not keep the population happy.
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