Posted on Nov 7, 2021
How do I navigate through a situation regarding a soldier of mine who always misses work, and has been enabled to do so by a more senior NCO?
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I’m a SGT (soon to be SSG) and I need guidance on this, as it is the first time I’m dealing with this. The only reason I am reaching outside of my chain of command is because I feel like I have not gotten the support that I need from them on this issue. I’m currently responsible for the care and wellbeing of 3 soldiers: a CPL, SPC and a PFC. Currently, the SPC has been a challenge. Since joining our section, she has given a huge amount of issues or reasons to not be at work. She has rarely been at work. And I mean rarely. She never did PT with us either. This last month or so I’ve only seen her a handful of times, if that. And it’s always the same reasons or excuses every time: She has car issues, her son can’t go into daycare, her son has to be taken out of daycare, her husband can’t watch her son so she has to because they won’t accept him at daycare, she has appointments, her husbands car doesn’t work so she has to drive him, or he has to use her car, she has to take her son to the emergency room, her husband to the emergency room, her son, her husband, her car, and it repeats itself. It has gotten worse since she recently became pregnant. She wasn’t attending P3T. The whole time I was trying to do what an NCO should do: see if she needs help, recommend solutions, ask for appointment slips, provide guidance etc. I found out that my NCO (a SSG) has been enabling her to miss work, without question. And she has been going directly to him without informing me of anything because she knows that he will let her “handle what she needs to” without question. I had a talk about it with him multiple times. Nothing changed. I talked to two SFCs, and a MSG. Nothing has changed. Since my NCO has been on leave, and the rest of us in class for a month, she was told to “lay low” while we are in class. That’s not the right answer. I had a talk with him about it again and he acted like he was on my side. It isn’t fair to my other soldiers or anyone that she is getting away with missing work so often. And it has gotten to the point where my PFC asked if she PCS’d or something. It’s ridiculous. I have been asking her for appointment slips and profiles and i’ve counseled her twice for not being to work on time. And she pulls the “SSG told me” move. So what do I do or what can I do? Step on my leaderships toes? Go to my 1SG (who is on leave I believe)? SGM?
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Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 17
Ok, Since I haven’t exactly seen a “good” answer yet, I’ll go:
1) counsel her stating verbatim “you will provide a record for all appointments NLT 48hrs prior to the appointment. Failure to do so will result in further counseling and at the second instance, punitive action will be taken”
2) if your child has to be taken out of daycare, you will get a note signed by a daycare official stating the reason and a contact number for that individual. Failure to do so will result in further counseling to include but not limited to lying to a non-commissioned officer.
3) if car issues are preventing you from getting to work, you will contact me and I will come get you. Any unexcused absence due to car issues will result in a failure to be at your appointed place of duty counseling.
4) inform her that the commander and 1SG do have the ability to call the ER and get a record of each time she was there and inform her that if any of the times she was “at the er” but isn’t on the record will result in lying to a NCO counseling.
5) if she is in fact pregnant, it should reflect on a profile, so ask to see it and begin the P3T program enrollment counseling and get her enrolled before she tries to pull the “my unit wouldn’t let me go to P3T” excuse.
6) it takes 2 counselings to begin UCMJ and everything above is likely what the 1SG and CSM would say.
7) reinforce to her that you are in fact her first line supervisor and you will go to me before going to the SSG. If she jumps the chain again, you counsel her, simple as that.
In about 2 weeks, she will have either changed, or you will have a UCMJ packet and in about a month, a separation packet.
Source: I had a soldier doing the same thing. Soldier is no longer in the Army
1) counsel her stating verbatim “you will provide a record for all appointments NLT 48hrs prior to the appointment. Failure to do so will result in further counseling and at the second instance, punitive action will be taken”
2) if your child has to be taken out of daycare, you will get a note signed by a daycare official stating the reason and a contact number for that individual. Failure to do so will result in further counseling to include but not limited to lying to a non-commissioned officer.
3) if car issues are preventing you from getting to work, you will contact me and I will come get you. Any unexcused absence due to car issues will result in a failure to be at your appointed place of duty counseling.
4) inform her that the commander and 1SG do have the ability to call the ER and get a record of each time she was there and inform her that if any of the times she was “at the er” but isn’t on the record will result in lying to a NCO counseling.
5) if she is in fact pregnant, it should reflect on a profile, so ask to see it and begin the P3T program enrollment counseling and get her enrolled before she tries to pull the “my unit wouldn’t let me go to P3T” excuse.
6) it takes 2 counselings to begin UCMJ and everything above is likely what the 1SG and CSM would say.
7) reinforce to her that you are in fact her first line supervisor and you will go to me before going to the SSG. If she jumps the chain again, you counsel her, simple as that.
In about 2 weeks, she will have either changed, or you will have a UCMJ packet and in about a month, a separation packet.
Source: I had a soldier doing the same thing. Soldier is no longer in the Army
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SFC Dave Garcia
Perfect answer. The only thing I would add is the you, the first line supervisor. All of these actions also protect you and your career. Document all contact, if possible make sure all interactions are witnessed. Problem children have a way of throwing accusations when they are caught in the wrong or challenged. Best of luck, stay firm.
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SSG Eric Blue
He's right. Put it on paper. She will either straighten the f--- up (because her money is being threatened) OR you will have the necessary paper trail to begin separation proceedings. I've only had to separate one soldier before everyone else got the message. I'm not sure why YOUR NCO isn't backing you up, but make sure you document that as well. If possible, find out the misunderstanding between you and your NCO. In my own experience, it's because of a quid pro quo situation between the junior soldier and your NCO. Best of luck.
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PO3 (Join to see)
Good answer. The command absolutely has no authority over an ER though and it would be illegal for them to even say he was there without his permission, otherwise well put
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Good evening SSG (Join to see). Excellent response and I concur. Everything has to be documented.
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This is simple. DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT!! DOCUMENT!!! Build a package. Counsel in writing the SPC. Have the SPC sign it; if she refuses, fine; have someone to witness her refusal [and sign they witnessed the refusal]. Your keep a copy and send the original to the CO requesting action. It should take about 4-6 months before the CO gets fed up and initiates separation papers. A person this bad should NOT get a good or average performance report. People with these issues, usually are well known by the Chain of Command. Why? Bad checks, missed appointments, issues with the local authorities, and alcohol issues.
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SFC (Join to see)
In the Army, leadership starts at the bottom goes to the top. One, an Army Sergeant is responsible for the overall performance of each Soldier under their charge and should always counsel each on their strengths and shortcomings. Proper corrective instruction and written counseling are expected, EVERY Leader in the Chain (Officers and NCOs, alike) are normally involved (open door policy to everyone in chain to address these issues) when the Sgt, after taking meaningful and progressive steps to allow the Soldier to repair and written counseling to identify issues and show the appropriate steps have been taken, does not believe these steps have achieved their stated goals. Too many times leaders have been too quick to pass the buck on their subordinates, too much of an investment is involved in each person to just throw them out! Currently way less than 1% of 333,000,000 Americans are serving in the Military. Congress has whittled away at the budget from 25% to 14-16%. The outlay to recruit, train and equip each one is staggering, personnel are the biggest cost of defense spending. So no we can’t pass the buck onto the Commander, without holding ourselves accountable for attrition and inherent responsibility of leadership.
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SMSgt Bob W.
SFC (Join to see) - Agreed to a certain point. The Sgt appears to have done his "due diligence". Evidently, he does not have the "horsepower" to get his subordinate's attention. I guess the Sgt's question is, " When do I transfer the issue to a superior who has the "horsepower" to correct the problem?" Agreed, it cause a lot to recruit and train individuals; however, many Recruiters only want to meet their quota, not necessary the quality of the individual. Yes recruitment is up. The Army, Air Force and Marine Corps have all upped their recruiting goals this year, after the COVID-19 pandemic slowed the number of incoming recruits in 2020. The increases coincide with a long-term plan to grow the Army, while the Air Force is overmanned and the Marine Corps is drawing down its manpower.
Although the military services have reached its recruiting and retention goals for fiscal year 2020, but officials said additional diversity in the ranks must be encouraged. With this as a goal for recruiting, additional pressures are on to recruit people to meet the “desired mold” of the political establishment. In the past, qualified people were overlooked for people to fit the quota. Again, it is not to find a person to fit the position; the Recruiter must now try to persuade people [some not interested, others not qualified for the position] to join the military. Remember, a recruit may be qualified for the military, but not the position the Recruiter selected them for. The recruiting service and the DOD, along with the political establishment are all happy. I remember the days when maintenance fields were open to women. Petite women were recruited to fill the positions. Many could not lift the toolbox needed to work from. After about three years, physical qualifications issued for the maintenance positions. Many of the initial group of females did not re-enlist and were not allowed to retrain because of the spotlight on them. The military chiefs were happy, Congress was happy; however, many of the women were NOT happy.
Although the military services have reached its recruiting and retention goals for fiscal year 2020, but officials said additional diversity in the ranks must be encouraged. With this as a goal for recruiting, additional pressures are on to recruit people to meet the “desired mold” of the political establishment. In the past, qualified people were overlooked for people to fit the quota. Again, it is not to find a person to fit the position; the Recruiter must now try to persuade people [some not interested, others not qualified for the position] to join the military. Remember, a recruit may be qualified for the military, but not the position the Recruiter selected them for. The recruiting service and the DOD, along with the political establishment are all happy. I remember the days when maintenance fields were open to women. Petite women were recruited to fill the positions. Many could not lift the toolbox needed to work from. After about three years, physical qualifications issued for the maintenance positions. Many of the initial group of females did not re-enlist and were not allowed to retrain because of the spotlight on them. The military chiefs were happy, Congress was happy; however, many of the women were NOT happy.
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Line up your ducks to make your life easier.
I had a soldier pull the "cancer card" on me while I was a commander, and well, I let a few battle assembly absences go by without medical documentation. I eventually got a doctor's appointment copy, but not confirmation of her condition, nor confirmation of appointment attendance.
Anyway......... this went on and on, and finally the excused absences I have to work within my authority had run out. So I started the counseling and documentation process to negative administrative action against the solider. Then POOF they put in for Retired Reserves.
I was being gamed.
Other problem soldiers I also started separation packets on and my life was made easier, or they shaped up when the notifications came certified mail.
Soldiers, and people in general will take advantage of the system and you who you think you are trying to help out or do right by them.
I'm of the opinion that the system of the Army/Military itself gives more than enough do-overs or extra help to service members that we as leaders in the chain of command do not need to give them more at the cost of us risking our own skin.
It was my job as a Company Commander to set up the administrative process to separate soldiers so my Battalion Commander could dot his i's and cross his t's so it could be sent up to the final authority of the CG.
I wanted to be in a position to tell my boss when I'm put on the spot about a failing soldier what I've done about it, and in worst cases I can tell them, "well sir, pass up the packet to the CG and this problem will be removed from the denominator.
It's all about the readiness ratio.
[ total soldiers - bad soldiers ] / [ total soldiers ] = readiness ratio
Get rid of all the bad soldiers and the ratio by itself without any improvement to performance will get to 100%.
At the very least, you need to be in a position to say to your chain of command you have counseled the soldier and did everything in your means to correct the action. Now, with continued inaction, based on your efforts your 1SG and CO can start the chaptering process. Otherwise, you are doing them a disservice because the system will continue to string them along until all the proper steps are taken to correct the action.
I had a soldier pull the "cancer card" on me while I was a commander, and well, I let a few battle assembly absences go by without medical documentation. I eventually got a doctor's appointment copy, but not confirmation of her condition, nor confirmation of appointment attendance.
Anyway......... this went on and on, and finally the excused absences I have to work within my authority had run out. So I started the counseling and documentation process to negative administrative action against the solider. Then POOF they put in for Retired Reserves.
I was being gamed.
Other problem soldiers I also started separation packets on and my life was made easier, or they shaped up when the notifications came certified mail.
Soldiers, and people in general will take advantage of the system and you who you think you are trying to help out or do right by them.
I'm of the opinion that the system of the Army/Military itself gives more than enough do-overs or extra help to service members that we as leaders in the chain of command do not need to give them more at the cost of us risking our own skin.
It was my job as a Company Commander to set up the administrative process to separate soldiers so my Battalion Commander could dot his i's and cross his t's so it could be sent up to the final authority of the CG.
I wanted to be in a position to tell my boss when I'm put on the spot about a failing soldier what I've done about it, and in worst cases I can tell them, "well sir, pass up the packet to the CG and this problem will be removed from the denominator.
It's all about the readiness ratio.
[ total soldiers - bad soldiers ] / [ total soldiers ] = readiness ratio
Get rid of all the bad soldiers and the ratio by itself without any improvement to performance will get to 100%.
At the very least, you need to be in a position to say to your chain of command you have counseled the soldier and did everything in your means to correct the action. Now, with continued inaction, based on your efforts your 1SG and CO can start the chaptering process. Otherwise, you are doing them a disservice because the system will continue to string them along until all the proper steps are taken to correct the action.
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SFC (Join to see)
Could have ordered a physical. Problem is, the Army spends all this money on a Soldier and all you really have to do is just not show a few times and, boom you’re transferred to the IRR. If a Soldier isn’t reporting to drill, have the NCO supervising drive over to pick him up, send a notice to report for drill to address and req signature service, document and counsel the Soldier and assist them to come up with a appropriate corrective action or direct after hours corrective training but don’t let it go, if you do others will become lax too.
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I think the best answer came from SSG (Join to see) and SSG (Join to see)
I had a similar situation. First, do what we used to call a "Magic Bullet Counseling" which basically means that you counsel the Soldier that her performance is not to standard and that failure to correct these issues will result in punitive actions.
This deal with her kid and daycare and her husband and the car is total B.S. Those two situations need to be counseled as a condition that may lead to a Family Hardship Discharge. Remember, the Army did not issue her a family, and it is a requirement of Army Regulations that you have a plan and system in place to take care of dependents.
Your direct first line supervisor is damaging your section. Those other hard working Soldiers deserve to know why they are having to carry someone else's gear every day. Those miles walked carrying someone else's load are always harder and longer than they need to be.
I had a similar situation. First, do what we used to call a "Magic Bullet Counseling" which basically means that you counsel the Soldier that her performance is not to standard and that failure to correct these issues will result in punitive actions.
This deal with her kid and daycare and her husband and the car is total B.S. Those two situations need to be counseled as a condition that may lead to a Family Hardship Discharge. Remember, the Army did not issue her a family, and it is a requirement of Army Regulations that you have a plan and system in place to take care of dependents.
Your direct first line supervisor is damaging your section. Those other hard working Soldiers deserve to know why they are having to carry someone else's gear every day. Those miles walked carrying someone else's load are always harder and longer than they need to be.
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Something is REALLY off, here...
First, do NOT mention taking family to the ER, unless you find it to be false. The other absences should speak for themselves, and you possibly violate regs and federal law.
Second, find out WTF is really going on. That many NCOs covering for someone is most likely either something improper, or something that is a massive medical issue for the family.
Talk to your SSG and see why they are allowing her to go directly to them.
First, do NOT mention taking family to the ER, unless you find it to be false. The other absences should speak for themselves, and you possibly violate regs and federal law.
Second, find out WTF is really going on. That many NCOs covering for someone is most likely either something improper, or something that is a massive medical issue for the family.
Talk to your SSG and see why they are allowing her to go directly to them.
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SGT (Join to see)
She claimed to be in the ER one time and I saw her on post in her civilians with a Starbucks in her hand… not sure how true the other times are. But I’ll get down to the bottom of it for sure.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) any time you go to a medical appt on base, your 1SG gets a phone call. I think ER might do the same. They do not get get told what it was for, just that it happened. (My last boss didn't know that until he made 1SG and they called him, lol)
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SGT Perchez, what you are dealing with is the challenges of leadership. This Soldier has been allowed to get away with this type of behavior and now you are trying to correct it. First thing, you NCOs have to get on the same sheet. So I would suggest you start there. Sit down with the NCOs involved and set the standards on how all the Soldiers in the section will be treated. Each situation that the Soldiers present to you must be addressed using the standards that you all come up with. Understand you have to use your best judgment. Secondly, you NCOs need to establish a clear line of reporting. Your Soldiers should be coming to you before they go to your supervisor or another NCO on the Team.
As for the Soldier personal life, she still has to meet the standards. Sometimes she may have to deal with life situations that cause her to be late for work, but you should hear about that before you have accounted her as been late for duty.
This is can be taken care of easily if you NCOs set clear and precise standards. If you try and you are not heard you may have to take it to the 1SG for his/her support. Hopefully you can handle this at the lowest level without involving upper leadership.
Lastly, remember if anything negative happens that involves your Soldiers, you are the one that has to answer to your leadership. Keep up the great work and enforce the standards.
As for the Soldier personal life, she still has to meet the standards. Sometimes she may have to deal with life situations that cause her to be late for work, but you should hear about that before you have accounted her as been late for duty.
This is can be taken care of easily if you NCOs set clear and precise standards. If you try and you are not heard you may have to take it to the 1SG for his/her support. Hopefully you can handle this at the lowest level without involving upper leadership.
Lastly, remember if anything negative happens that involves your Soldiers, you are the one that has to answer to your leadership. Keep up the great work and enforce the standards.
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SGT (Join to see)
I will keep trying to get everyone on the same page regarding the soldier in question. I appreciate your guidance and advice very much. I’ll handle this the best way I can. Thank you so much!
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Yes. Go to 1SG. Also go to your first level officer and maybe even your CO as well. The NCO support channel is good to use but we do have officers as well. It does sound like its time to involve them.
Your SSG may be spineless or have some sort of relationship with the SPC that is contrary to Army values: this doesnt mean they are sleeping together, but showing favoritism to a Soldier also contrary to Army values.
Your SSG may be spineless or have some sort of relationship with the SPC that is contrary to Army values: this doesnt mean they are sleeping together, but showing favoritism to a Soldier also contrary to Army values.
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SGT (Join to see)
Unfortunately you may be right, my other soldiers are starting to feel like they are being tested unequally by my NCO, and that shouldn’t be the case. I’ll try to get this squared away ASAP. Thank you!
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You need to focus on the things you can change and not stress about what you can't.
What you can help with is to improve the loose threads. Speak to your first line leader and get a greenlight so you are protected if anyone calls BS on you. Just do a review of POV's, family care plans and things like that and help them get any issues addressed. A proactive approach will help plug any holes and will reduce future issues. You can also review physical fitness and help make a plan for that but just walk lightly if she is pregnant because there will be limitations to what you can do there. You can always speak to the SSgt and build an approach so you have a way forward.
What you can help with is to improve the loose threads. Speak to your first line leader and get a greenlight so you are protected if anyone calls BS on you. Just do a review of POV's, family care plans and things like that and help them get any issues addressed. A proactive approach will help plug any holes and will reduce future issues. You can also review physical fitness and help make a plan for that but just walk lightly if she is pregnant because there will be limitations to what you can do there. You can always speak to the SSgt and build an approach so you have a way forward.
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SGT (Join to see)
I’ll keep trying my best to get my nco and other on the same page and find out a plan of action, and I’ll take your advice and others as well. Thank you so much!
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I hope you have everything documented in counseling forms. Because you take all this information and you run it up to the Commander and recommend UCMJ for malingering. If you don't have all this already documented, then get it documented.
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A SSG doesn't have the authority to allow her to steal a paycheck from the government. He does not have the authority to excuse her in that manner. I have a hard time imagining a child care plan is there or being followed. Go to the CSM if 1SG isn't available. Use the CMDR open door policy. This seems to also be a form of sexism.
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SGT (Join to see)
Not sure what is actually going on, but i will use the CMDR open door policy if my nco support channel doesn’t help. Thank you for the advice!
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SGT (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff She is dual military, I’ll look into that information as well. Thank you!
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