Posted on Jun 26, 2015
How has FDC changed over the years, have you lost basic gunnery knowlage
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I came in as a 13E charts and darts, computed our own firing data using paper and a pencil. then TACFIRE came and I became a 13C. I also seen IFSAS and AFATADS and retired a 13D. I always had that basic gunnery knowlage and wouldent hesitate to overide a firing soluition based soley on my instinct, IE had a gun that was constantly shooting long, all data was good in the BCS so the FDC chief moved the gun 50m but left the data alone. bang on tgt. and ther were other things we would do but we also had a firm understanding of basic gunnery. we often wondered what the future would hold, would basic gunnery knowlage be lost in a digitalized FDC?
Posted in these groups: 
13D: Field Artillery Tactical Data Systems Specialist
13D: Field Artillery Tactical Data Systems Specialist
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 17
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I enlisted as 13E in 1975. Ended up being Section Chief and Chief Computer for my FDC before I went back to Sill. There I taught 13E and 13F AIT. In 1980 I was selected as Cadre for the TACFIRE school in Europe. Did 2 tours teaching TACFIRE, and 2 tours in artillery battalions. I retired in 1995 and I still remember my gunnery. Also loved being stationed at Grafenwoehr.
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SP5 Donald Drain
Got to Germany just after Christmas 1958 and got of of the Troop ship and on a troop train to Munich. Trucked to Warner Kaserne Kaserne to our Barracks
Which was a SS Kaserne for the German Forces. 8 miles of hall that was waxed and shined with a GI Blanket with me riding it. We had not gotten the Buffers yet..
We ran 5 miles out and 5 back every morning in our pants, Boots and T Shirts orders of General Walker. Went over as the Big Red One and changed to 24th Division.
We went to Wintershield every year and saw Elvis during Wintershield at 40 to 45 below and 4 ft of snow.
He drove for a Lt. Just as cold as we were. Went to Graf and Hohenfels several times a year for 30 days...for firing our Guns and practicing firing our Guns.
We were in the field 9 to Ten Months a year..
Which was a SS Kaserne for the German Forces. 8 miles of hall that was waxed and shined with a GI Blanket with me riding it. We had not gotten the Buffers yet..
We ran 5 miles out and 5 back every morning in our pants, Boots and T Shirts orders of General Walker. Went over as the Big Red One and changed to 24th Division.
We went to Wintershield every year and saw Elvis during Wintershield at 40 to 45 below and 4 ft of snow.
He drove for a Lt. Just as cold as we were. Went to Graf and Hohenfels several times a year for 30 days...for firing our Guns and practicing firing our Guns.
We were in the field 9 to Ten Months a year..
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Manual Gunnery is still taught in AIT for the 13D. Safety still taught in ALC. Depending on the type of weapon system the FDC is supporting manual gunnery may or may not be reinforced. I know light cannon guys still spend a lot of time with there charts, running them in tandem with the AFATDS. The M777 guys I've worked with use it less and less. TFT's are hard to get hands on. Special munitions like the excal require a degree of coordination that just isn't feasable with sticks. You can get angle and quadrant but without the AFATDS for fuzing and clearence, you'll never shoot. The biggest drawback I have found with Soldiers not being given an education in manual gunnery is their lack of basic gunnery knowledge. The AFATDS is a tool, a fantastic tool, but still a tool. Without basic gunnery skills operators can't fully engage that tool. An AFATDS may refuse a solution to a gunnery problem we know is workable. Without that basic knowledge we have no way of providing the correct guidance and parameters the "box" needs to mopst effeciently do it's job.
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SFC (Join to see)
"lack of basic gunnery knowledge" That is exactly what we thought would happen through the years, soldiers would become dependent on computers to whip out a solution without knowing how or why. Not that i dont like the digital age, but when you get a call saying that tgt is below my min safe, would the call be EOM or would they know to ask how far, and be able to make the call in thier head whether to fire min and keep them in the mission or EOM, or manulipate the system in order to get a good and safe firing solution.
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SFC Kevin Presser
It's been 37 years since I went through the Gunnery Deparment Rehearsal Program, and taught 13E and 13F AIT. I still remember my gunney.
Have faced the safety box problem before. At Graf on one occasion, based on our firing point location, 04/09, center of the impact area was out of safe. Quadrant was below min safe. Safey box was 500+ mils left to right. Below certain QE, box had to be towed in 180 mils left and right. Rather then do that Safety Officer lopped off dog legs which made center of impact area out of safe. I recalculated safety diagram and had it approved and applied and we carried on. If computer is not giving good solutions, check your data in the data bases. I also taught TACFIRE in Graf for 7 1/2 years over 2 tours in the 80's. Also 2 tours as FCNCO in 155mm SP Direct Support Artillery Bn. One tour in mid 80's at Knox, and one tour in Vilseck in early 90's.
Have faced the safety box problem before. At Graf on one occasion, based on our firing point location, 04/09, center of the impact area was out of safe. Quadrant was below min safe. Safey box was 500+ mils left to right. Below certain QE, box had to be towed in 180 mils left and right. Rather then do that Safety Officer lopped off dog legs which made center of impact area out of safe. I recalculated safety diagram and had it approved and applied and we carried on. If computer is not giving good solutions, check your data in the data bases. I also taught TACFIRE in Graf for 7 1/2 years over 2 tours in the 80's. Also 2 tours as FCNCO in 155mm SP Direct Support Artillery Bn. One tour in mid 80's at Knox, and one tour in Vilseck in early 90's.
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SGT Dexter Guptill
SFC Kevin Presser - Sounds like you and I probably overlapped. I did Basic and AIT at Sill in second half of 1976, and permanent party in III Corps Arty from Dec 76-Jul 80.
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SGT Dexter Guptill
Also, going to school on the GI Bill in the early 1980s, my calculator died during a Trigonometry final. I cracked the back of the book to the log & trig tables, and finished that sucker manually.
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So having been a young kid and growing up on a real light piece, manual gunnery was the way of life. I've worked in almost every type of BN or BDE to include an MLRS counter fire BDE. Manual gunnery is still taught and preached in light units, having verified that from ALC and had a young SGT with me from Hawaii. Heavy units no longer maintain charts and sticks so the manual fire direction competency in those units is significantly degraded. It's going to become degraded more so with the future MOS joining of the 13P and 13D into 13J.
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SFC (Join to see)
I am an FDC section chief in a m777 unit. A couple years ago they tried taking away all of our manual gunnery items and we fought tooth and nail to keep them. Thank goodness we one that fight. I know from experience that computers can and do fail. That is why we still use charts and darts on every mission and why every new soldier that comes into my section starts at that position. I don't see how toy can truly understand what the data you are getting from the computer means if you don't know how to get it yourself.
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SFC Jim Ruether
They always told us that MLRS would replaced towed Artillery and that's what we had to look forwards to. A lot of dry missions and maybe a live fire exercise once a year?
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SP5 Donald Drain
It really makes a difference when you go in for a disability claim and hearing for the hearing disability.
The new MOS is not same as the old one with the Guns. I was in with guys that were in Korea on the hill with all but 3 to 6 months in grade as E7s or even 1ST sGt. and Even Sgt. MAjOR TOO..
Most of them were Forward Observers.
My LT. Was promoted 3 times the First week he was assigned to the Hill.hecwent from E2 PFC all the way to Sgt. Major in Six Months and then to OCS in Ft. Sill and got promoted to 1st Lt. After a year as 2nd Lt... he was 28 when I met him
Had been up through the ranks and was best of all of them.
Liked all but a couple of the Sgts.
While in the new unit I served under a very good down to earth General. Met him 1st couple of times when I made Generals Orderly at Guard Duty and 3rd time earned exemption from Guard. The new 1st Sgt. Was moved up and he was a FO and he liked to show his rank.
So after I had made Generals Orderly 3rd time and had to talk with the General which we got alongpretty well . General Watson was very Seasoned too.
When the new 1stcSgt put me on Guard again I tried to explain to him and my Section Chief Sgt E6 also talked to him too to no avail
And I made GO for 4th time and when I met with the General he asked what I was doing on Guard again.
I explained it and The 1st SGT got to go see the General.
He left the Generals office with a sad face and a stern warning that he would be walking Guard in the person on guard if he did it again to any Generals Ordered and he
Had to sit in front of the General and go over all the Generals rules and his rewards and awards for the enlisted personnel that did good in their Duty. No E5 would walk Guard
And The 1st Sgt had to walk guard for a Specialist 5 that he put on Guard. He almost got busted back.
The Colonel had a sit down with the General with the Sgt too.
The General told him he would send him to the Infantry as a platoon Sgt. If he did any other thing against his standing orders.
He blamed it on his Clerk. The Colonel was really ticked off at him.
General had his Aid which was a neat guy get a copy of all of our Duty Rosters from then on..
No more screw ups either.
The general gave 3 day passes also with the Generals Orderly too.
I didn't get to take mine so my Captain got mine and ok'd mine .two at a time forv6 days so I could go on a tour to Zurich and Lazerne
On a 5 day bus trip.
Very good trip too lots of history and goodvtime..
The new MOS is not same as the old one with the Guns. I was in with guys that were in Korea on the hill with all but 3 to 6 months in grade as E7s or even 1ST sGt. and Even Sgt. MAjOR TOO..
Most of them were Forward Observers.
My LT. Was promoted 3 times the First week he was assigned to the Hill.hecwent from E2 PFC all the way to Sgt. Major in Six Months and then to OCS in Ft. Sill and got promoted to 1st Lt. After a year as 2nd Lt... he was 28 when I met him
Had been up through the ranks and was best of all of them.
Liked all but a couple of the Sgts.
While in the new unit I served under a very good down to earth General. Met him 1st couple of times when I made Generals Orderly at Guard Duty and 3rd time earned exemption from Guard. The new 1st Sgt. Was moved up and he was a FO and he liked to show his rank.
So after I had made Generals Orderly 3rd time and had to talk with the General which we got alongpretty well . General Watson was very Seasoned too.
When the new 1stcSgt put me on Guard again I tried to explain to him and my Section Chief Sgt E6 also talked to him too to no avail
And I made GO for 4th time and when I met with the General he asked what I was doing on Guard again.
I explained it and The 1st SGT got to go see the General.
He left the Generals office with a sad face and a stern warning that he would be walking Guard in the person on guard if he did it again to any Generals Ordered and he
Had to sit in front of the General and go over all the Generals rules and his rewards and awards for the enlisted personnel that did good in their Duty. No E5 would walk Guard
And The 1st Sgt had to walk guard for a Specialist 5 that he put on Guard. He almost got busted back.
The Colonel had a sit down with the General with the Sgt too.
The General told him he would send him to the Infantry as a platoon Sgt. If he did any other thing against his standing orders.
He blamed it on his Clerk. The Colonel was really ticked off at him.
General had his Aid which was a neat guy get a copy of all of our Duty Rosters from then on..
No more screw ups either.
The general gave 3 day passes also with the Generals Orderly too.
I didn't get to take mine so my Captain got mine and ok'd mine .two at a time forv6 days so I could go on a tour to Zurich and Lazerne
On a 5 day bus trip.
Very good trip too lots of history and goodvtime..
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SP5 Donald Drain
SFC (Join to see) in Graf we set guns up on 2800 deflection and went from there.. while we were there there was a unit that messed up on their figures and hit the area of another unit with their live round one gun wrong command..all units were visit given classed and no live rounds until given ok.
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