Posted on Dec 31, 2015
How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
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How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
Marines
Discipline
Regulation
Military bearing
What Would You Do
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 937
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I was taught in BCT (Ft Leonard Wood, 1975) that even when a superior is wrong, unless he (now she) is ordering you to commit a crime or do something unreasonably dangerous (our business IS war, after all), you obey the order and THEN complain. I had a situation I just shared with someone else in 1977 where a sergeant in my battery had a case of the jaws at our battery commander and took it out on me that night when he was on CQ. It remains one of the most humiliating experiences of my life, but I stood there some ten minutes while this sergeant screamed, berated, and cursed me for over ten minutes. Finally it was over and I was allowed to leave. Monday morning (the incident happened on a Friday night), our 1SG called me in to the Orderly Room, he had heard about the incident and wanted to know if I wanted to write the incident up as the sergeant had totally overstepped in front of witnesses.
I had the man's life and career in my hands because I kept my cool. Had I spoken back, I would have been wrong and might have been in trouble myself - even though provoked. I let the guy go, he was a ten year, Vietnam vet and had problems. Why destroy his career over one bad night? But I never spoke to the man again unless absolutely necessary, which was sad, as we had enjoyed a good relationship in spite of the difference in rank.
But I am thankful for every Drill Sergeant who got in my face in Basic and AIT, and every Blackhat who screamed at me in Jump School, spraying all sorts of insults and whatever came into their minds. They taught me self-discipline that saved my hide that night - and on others.
Having said that:
1) The officer was right to make the correction, he was wrong to allow the young Marine's attitude set him off. After all, he is SUPPOSED to be more mature than those he leads, that's why he gets the big bucks. When the Marine smarted off, he should have taken the guy's name and unit, even just the name off his tag if he wanted to avoid further confrontation, it shouldn't be too hard to track the guy and have his chain deal with him.
2) The young Marine was totally in the wrong for more reasons than one. His address to a superior officer was out of line. Even if the LT were wrong HE was wrong by arguing (reason for the story above); he should have gone ahead and uncovered and if he felt it was important enough complained later.
3) The SGM was completely correct. When I was in SGMs and CSMs sat on the left hand of God. Even though they were technically outranked by officers, the respect of their experience and wisdom was rarely questioned by smart officers. Dumb officers - well, they learned quickly or didn't make it.
4) It is the duty of every soldier to correct deficiencies when spotted. I believe it is a way of looking out for each other - and the corps (using this in the general sense).
One time, it had to be about 1983, I was a young Sergeant, E-5 stationed at Ft Bragg. I was in Spring Lake, NC at the shopping center when I saw three National Guard senior NCOs (an E-7 and two E-8s) get out of a car and head to a store in Class Bs (the gray-green shirt) without covers. I admit I hesitated, after all, I was in civilian clothes and all three of these guys outranked me. But it irked me these guys were showing disrespect. So I swallowed hard and walked over toward where they were reaching the sidewalk.
"Excuse me, Sergeants," I said, as politely as I could. "You all don't want to be caught out here uncovered, the Courtesy Patrol is pretty rough around here."
I could tell at least one of the guys resented my intrusion and was going to challenge me, but one of the E-8s, a bit red-faced intervened, "He's right, we better go get our hats. Thanks."
Whereupon they went back, got their headgear, and I went on about my business. There is usually a way to handle things without causing a storm.
I had the man's life and career in my hands because I kept my cool. Had I spoken back, I would have been wrong and might have been in trouble myself - even though provoked. I let the guy go, he was a ten year, Vietnam vet and had problems. Why destroy his career over one bad night? But I never spoke to the man again unless absolutely necessary, which was sad, as we had enjoyed a good relationship in spite of the difference in rank.
But I am thankful for every Drill Sergeant who got in my face in Basic and AIT, and every Blackhat who screamed at me in Jump School, spraying all sorts of insults and whatever came into their minds. They taught me self-discipline that saved my hide that night - and on others.
Having said that:
1) The officer was right to make the correction, he was wrong to allow the young Marine's attitude set him off. After all, he is SUPPOSED to be more mature than those he leads, that's why he gets the big bucks. When the Marine smarted off, he should have taken the guy's name and unit, even just the name off his tag if he wanted to avoid further confrontation, it shouldn't be too hard to track the guy and have his chain deal with him.
2) The young Marine was totally in the wrong for more reasons than one. His address to a superior officer was out of line. Even if the LT were wrong HE was wrong by arguing (reason for the story above); he should have gone ahead and uncovered and if he felt it was important enough complained later.
3) The SGM was completely correct. When I was in SGMs and CSMs sat on the left hand of God. Even though they were technically outranked by officers, the respect of their experience and wisdom was rarely questioned by smart officers. Dumb officers - well, they learned quickly or didn't make it.
4) It is the duty of every soldier to correct deficiencies when spotted. I believe it is a way of looking out for each other - and the corps (using this in the general sense).
One time, it had to be about 1983, I was a young Sergeant, E-5 stationed at Ft Bragg. I was in Spring Lake, NC at the shopping center when I saw three National Guard senior NCOs (an E-7 and two E-8s) get out of a car and head to a store in Class Bs (the gray-green shirt) without covers. I admit I hesitated, after all, I was in civilian clothes and all three of these guys outranked me. But it irked me these guys were showing disrespect. So I swallowed hard and walked over toward where they were reaching the sidewalk.
"Excuse me, Sergeants," I said, as politely as I could. "You all don't want to be caught out here uncovered, the Courtesy Patrol is pretty rough around here."
I could tell at least one of the guys resented my intrusion and was going to challenge me, but one of the E-8s, a bit red-faced intervened, "He's right, we better go get our hats. Thanks."
Whereupon they went back, got their headgear, and I went on about my business. There is usually a way to handle things without causing a storm.
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You uncover in a building Period... Rank Confers no Privilege...laffs unless Armed as @ Sgt Aaron Kennedy expressed we learned this the hard way in BCT...laffs you'd be my Worm for the Day...
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I have been retired from the Marine Corps for over a year. Now, I will wear a hat in mcx. I'm not in Corps anymore so I'm not subject to Marine Corps orders anymore
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I would walk up and correct the individual. If the officer is senior to me, I would ask if I could get a copy of the new regulations that authorizd wearing a cover indoors.
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Two situations come to mind.
A good friend I went to BCT/AIT with many years ago was stationed at Walter Reid. They don't have a "post" so to speak so they have to send their soldiers down to Bragg for WLC. Said friend and her senior NCO come to witness the graduation and the SFC is seen walking down the street, Talking on his Cell Phone--right in front of the Airborne shopette. A 1SG took great offense to this infraction and called out the SFC on the street--with good reason. I'm being told this story (with much outrage and indignation) by this young NCO friend over lunch. Things like "I've never seen someone talk down to a SFC that way," and "It was outrageous" were thrown out. Having "grown up" on Bragg I looked at them like they'd lost their frigging mind. I firmly told them that, Standards are Standards and it doesn't matter if you're a SFC or a COL....which brought to mind the day I saw a Full Bird walking across the parking lot of the Walmart in uniform, talking on their cell phone...and I called him out (howbeit VERY POLITELY). I was a SPC. Some might say a SPC shouldn't have called out a COL. Maybe. But The Standard IS the Standard. If we don't uphold the standard, then who will? BTW, That COL looked at me like I'd lost MY mind, kept walking and talking on his cell and didn't even pause to acknowledge me. However, I hope he felt really guilty later and thought about it (ha!) The point to all of this is simple....it doesn't matter Where you are, or what your rank is....if you see someone doing something that isn't Right...it's up to you to say something about it. Period. You said the JO was "polite". The soldier was clearly in the wrong and should have been called out by the JO, and should be reprimanded by this COC for his infraction and disrespect to an officer. The location isn't relevant. Even the Rank of the person calling him out isn't really relevant. He was Wrong. End of discussion. I hope he's on extra duty as I write this and I hope he learns the Standard so well that someday, He has the courage to call out a COL if they're in the wrong.
A good friend I went to BCT/AIT with many years ago was stationed at Walter Reid. They don't have a "post" so to speak so they have to send their soldiers down to Bragg for WLC. Said friend and her senior NCO come to witness the graduation and the SFC is seen walking down the street, Talking on his Cell Phone--right in front of the Airborne shopette. A 1SG took great offense to this infraction and called out the SFC on the street--with good reason. I'm being told this story (with much outrage and indignation) by this young NCO friend over lunch. Things like "I've never seen someone talk down to a SFC that way," and "It was outrageous" were thrown out. Having "grown up" on Bragg I looked at them like they'd lost their frigging mind. I firmly told them that, Standards are Standards and it doesn't matter if you're a SFC or a COL....which brought to mind the day I saw a Full Bird walking across the parking lot of the Walmart in uniform, talking on their cell phone...and I called him out (howbeit VERY POLITELY). I was a SPC. Some might say a SPC shouldn't have called out a COL. Maybe. But The Standard IS the Standard. If we don't uphold the standard, then who will? BTW, That COL looked at me like I'd lost MY mind, kept walking and talking on his cell and didn't even pause to acknowledge me. However, I hope he felt really guilty later and thought about it (ha!) The point to all of this is simple....it doesn't matter Where you are, or what your rank is....if you see someone doing something that isn't Right...it's up to you to say something about it. Period. You said the JO was "polite". The soldier was clearly in the wrong and should have been called out by the JO, and should be reprimanded by this COC for his infraction and disrespect to an officer. The location isn't relevant. Even the Rank of the person calling him out isn't really relevant. He was Wrong. End of discussion. I hope he's on extra duty as I write this and I hope he learns the Standard so well that someday, He has the courage to call out a COL if they're in the wrong.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SGT (Join to see) The sign of a really good leader is to take advice and corrective action from all that provide it in a professional manner. If I'm doing something wrong and someone advises me and take the initiative to correct the action, then the right thing for me to do is acknowledge that they are correct and thank them for being on the ball, leading by example, and leaning forward in the foxhole; then I need to stop whatever it is that is wrong or against regulation and say, thank you I stand corrected! - but that is me! Thanks for sharing your story and feedback!
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The SM did the right, even if the young Marine just forgot to initially remove it. Sounds like he had plenty of opportunity to remove it. Mommy or not, he is a member of our armed forces. I was not there, but the Junior Officer could have handled the situation better. The Sergeant Major should not to have been involved in the first place.
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SSG Don Maggart
We Self Correct Self Police if Auslander's intrude we fail.... BTW my gig line is correct...laffs
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC (Join to see) Roger that - that is what they call it on Pendleton the Marine Corps Exchange (MCX) for short right on the fron of the building! I said it wrong in the orginal post - my bad!
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