Posted on Dec 31, 2015
How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
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How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
Marines
Discipline
Regulation
Military bearing
What Would You Do
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 937
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Extra duty if he's extremely lucky!!! Arguing with a junior O (even if butternut) could easily be courts martial offense.
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Let me point out as a old school Marine Sgt. The situation was handled correctly by the Sergeant-Major. This young Marine with his Mommy entered a building on a military reservation in his uniform of the day. Having entered with his cover still on and not under arms was stopped by a Marine Officer and told to remove his cover. The Marine Officer, most likely dress him down in front of Mommy. Air go his disrespect of said Marine Officer. Disobeying a direct order! Article 15. Maybe Article 32. when the Sergeant-Major saw and heard this.He acted swiftly and dragged this dumbass Marine out and probably put his boot up his ass and detained (arrested) him for violating the UCMJ. A Captains Mast for sure, maybe a summery court marshal This is the Marine Corps we are talking about. Marine Officers are to be respected no matter what! There are ways Marine NCO'S can approach a Marine Officer respectfully point out his shortcomings. As for Mommy throwing a sisy fit, well you politely point out the her son is property of the United States Marine Corps
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I was in during the 70s the cashier would have corrected the young marine and if he didn't comply he would be refused service
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
PO2 Joseph Ritter You got it all Joseph! How do you think each individual should have acted?
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That SgtMaj probably just saved that kid from NJP, albeit, he's probably going to get more than he bargained for from the SgtMaj! (Just won't end up on his record). A better question would be why an NCO( who was most likely in the same grid square at the time ) not intervene before a junior officer had to! NCO's are the backbone, need to start acting like it! Shouldn't take junior officers or SgtMaj's to make corrections in a public place such as an MCX which was undoubtedly full of more senior enlisted Marines or Sailors (NCO's & PO's).
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SgtMaj Bret Roy Accordingly the SgtMaj was an isle over and bellowed from a distance as he heard the exchange initially take place. I believe like you that it wouldn't have gone as far as it did if he was right there when the Marine Covered indoors. I can;t tell you if there were other Marine NCO's in that check out line, but you're absolutely correct on that point as well. If there were I truly believe that the Marine NCO would have taken action before the Juinor Officer. Great points Bret!
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The officer didn't handle it properly, the Marine with the cover should have immediately followed orders, and the Sgt Maj was doing his job. The enlisted and junior officer were both out of control.
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The officer didn't handle it properly, the Marine with the cover should have immediately followed orders, and the Sgt Maj was doing his job. The enlisted and junior officer were out of control.
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They were all wrong, the j.o. Most of all I think. The junior officer should have told the young marine to remove his cover and reminded him that marines DO NOT go covered indoors, the young marine should have been smart enough to sence that somthing was amiss and ask politely who the j.o. was.
The Sgt Major came storming up, as Sgt Majors tend to do, and, I think appropriately, got everyone's attention, as Sgt Majors are adept in doing. Once the jaw jacking has been stopped and the problem has been identified, the Sgt Major SHOULD have escorted both outside to DICUSS, in a more private setting the unseemly and VERY unmarine like behavior of both Marines.
The Sgt Major came storming up, as Sgt Majors tend to do, and, I think appropriately, got everyone's attention, as Sgt Majors are adept in doing. Once the jaw jacking has been stopped and the problem has been identified, the Sgt Major SHOULD have escorted both outside to DICUSS, in a more private setting the unseemly and VERY unmarine like behavior of both Marines.
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I agree with this. He was first asked politely to take it off and when he decided to disrespect the junior officer, yeah he got pissed. The Sergeant Major handled it very well by taking him away from people to discipline the marine.
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There are some things to consider before intelligently answering...
1) was the officer in uniform of any kind?
2) how far from the exit was the Marine?
There's just not enough information...
For example:
If the officer wasn't in uniform, he becomes just some dude asking him to remove his cover. Not saying the enlisted Marine shouldn't have just taken off the cover.
Also if the Marine is literally about to push the door open he may have needed his cover on before he existed...
Either way getting in another Marines face while yelling is not the correct approach. When correcting another service member with civilians around is always best to do so quietly or privately, especially if you need to chew their ass off.
Finally, from the text of the events above, it seems only the SgtMaj did the correct thing.
Besides, a junior officer can make a junior enlisted members life hell if he wanted, especially over something small. Senior enlisted members (like a SgtMaj) are a lot harder to fuck with, but still possible. Mostly because a SgtMaj is battalion level and reports directly to the Battalion Commander which is usually a Lt Col or higher... another words a senior officer. Junior officers, like lieutenants are either platoon or company.
So more information is needed.
1) was the officer in uniform of any kind?
2) how far from the exit was the Marine?
There's just not enough information...
For example:
If the officer wasn't in uniform, he becomes just some dude asking him to remove his cover. Not saying the enlisted Marine shouldn't have just taken off the cover.
Also if the Marine is literally about to push the door open he may have needed his cover on before he existed...
Either way getting in another Marines face while yelling is not the correct approach. When correcting another service member with civilians around is always best to do so quietly or privately, especially if you need to chew their ass off.
Finally, from the text of the events above, it seems only the SgtMaj did the correct thing.
Besides, a junior officer can make a junior enlisted members life hell if he wanted, especially over something small. Senior enlisted members (like a SgtMaj) are a lot harder to fuck with, but still possible. Mostly because a SgtMaj is battalion level and reports directly to the Battalion Commander which is usually a Lt Col or higher... another words a senior officer. Junior officers, like lieutenants are either platoon or company.
So more information is needed.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
Sgt Joshua Seavey here are the answers to your question based on the facts presented by my wife and co-workers and the cashier at the MCX:
1) The Officer was in uniform
2) The special Cashier is located very close to the exit out of the MCX. It was set up special for Marines or Service Members in Uniform for priority check-out. It is exactly 4 feet from the exit door, so it wouldn't surprise me if a young Marine was in a hurry and his hands were full to accidently forget and place his cover on immeidately after checking out. According to my wife and cashier the young Marine private had just finished checking out grabbing his bags and placed his cover on his head and was headed for the door. The junior officer got into his face immeidately coming in from outside and asked him to remove his cover (got into his face space) according to cashier. (I'v got the facts written down on this). That is when the young Marine barked back (totally insubordantly); then the exchange of words, mother making comments escalating the situation, cashier asking them to settle it down or take it outside, SgtMaj bellowing as he was coming up the isle toward the check out cashier wih family on tow, grabbing Private by colar and instructing the junior officer to follow him outside. Corrective action continued outside in front of the MCX.
My question, was could this have been handled differently by all involed and how? I believe it could have been and most of the incident would have been avoided. That is just my opinion!
1) The Officer was in uniform
2) The special Cashier is located very close to the exit out of the MCX. It was set up special for Marines or Service Members in Uniform for priority check-out. It is exactly 4 feet from the exit door, so it wouldn't surprise me if a young Marine was in a hurry and his hands were full to accidently forget and place his cover on immeidately after checking out. According to my wife and cashier the young Marine private had just finished checking out grabbing his bags and placed his cover on his head and was headed for the door. The junior officer got into his face immeidately coming in from outside and asked him to remove his cover (got into his face space) according to cashier. (I'v got the facts written down on this). That is when the young Marine barked back (totally insubordantly); then the exchange of words, mother making comments escalating the situation, cashier asking them to settle it down or take it outside, SgtMaj bellowing as he was coming up the isle toward the check out cashier wih family on tow, grabbing Private by colar and instructing the junior officer to follow him outside. Corrective action continued outside in front of the MCX.
My question, was could this have been handled differently by all involed and how? I believe it could have been and most of the incident would have been avoided. That is just my opinion!
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Sgt Joshua Seavey
Oh ok, so yea that info changes things quite a bit.
They were both in the wrong, but only because of how each handled the situation.
First off the officer. I very highly doubt if the Marine (Pvt) was in a hurry that the Officer would have enough time to stop and correct him properly (could be wrong though). As you are describing it... my opinion would be to follow the Marine outside and inform him that for next time to wait until he is outside. Or say "hey, Marine let me speak with you for a second" and pull him aside to talk. I'm also guessing this officer is a 2nd Lt and if I'm correct, he was probably having a bad day (no excuse).
The Marine, no matter if he was correct or not should have say "aye aye sir" removed the cover for the few steps until outside. or "yes, sir" even though that's not actually proper given it's for "yes" "no" and not a command. With that said though, the officer was in the right for attempting to correct the Marine; therefore the Marine is wrong.
Now when I was in the Marine Corps (2004-2012), from Camp Pendleton and Twenty-Nine Palms (back and forth... kind of), the only time you were in the right to disobey or correct an officer is: 1) if given an order that would result in you getting killed (I had an officer once give a class about IEDs and said to kick it in order to know if it's actually real... yes kick it! He was corrected 2) the officer has some issue with his uniform, but correct tactfully. If he were to dismiss it, so what, you tried. 3) and finally lawful orders. That one is iffy though and you need to know policy to keep from getting in trouble.
For example:
1) If you were told to put tires, tow bars, jumper cables, and other Motor T essentials in the back of a high back... you better know that you can't have people back there too.
2) When you are a Coyote (TTECG), and you are told to load crypto into the training units radios. As a Coyote, you are not to interfere unless there is a safety cease fire situation. If the unit that is training is unable to communicate... you as a Coyote are not allowed to provide them with Crypto. That is their Communication Officer or Communication Shops job. And it's illegal to do so.
They were both in the wrong, but only because of how each handled the situation.
First off the officer. I very highly doubt if the Marine (Pvt) was in a hurry that the Officer would have enough time to stop and correct him properly (could be wrong though). As you are describing it... my opinion would be to follow the Marine outside and inform him that for next time to wait until he is outside. Or say "hey, Marine let me speak with you for a second" and pull him aside to talk. I'm also guessing this officer is a 2nd Lt and if I'm correct, he was probably having a bad day (no excuse).
The Marine, no matter if he was correct or not should have say "aye aye sir" removed the cover for the few steps until outside. or "yes, sir" even though that's not actually proper given it's for "yes" "no" and not a command. With that said though, the officer was in the right for attempting to correct the Marine; therefore the Marine is wrong.
Now when I was in the Marine Corps (2004-2012), from Camp Pendleton and Twenty-Nine Palms (back and forth... kind of), the only time you were in the right to disobey or correct an officer is: 1) if given an order that would result in you getting killed (I had an officer once give a class about IEDs and said to kick it in order to know if it's actually real... yes kick it! He was corrected 2) the officer has some issue with his uniform, but correct tactfully. If he were to dismiss it, so what, you tried. 3) and finally lawful orders. That one is iffy though and you need to know policy to keep from getting in trouble.
For example:
1) If you were told to put tires, tow bars, jumper cables, and other Motor T essentials in the back of a high back... you better know that you can't have people back there too.
2) When you are a Coyote (TTECG), and you are told to load crypto into the training units radios. As a Coyote, you are not to interfere unless there is a safety cease fire situation. If the unit that is training is unable to communicate... you as a Coyote are not allowed to provide them with Crypto. That is their Communication Officer or Communication Shops job. And it's illegal to do so.
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