Posted on Dec 31, 2015
How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
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How should a situation in the MCX about wearing a cover in the building be handled properly?
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE ARE IN THE HABIT OF TELLING A LIE OR MAKING UP A STORY - IT HAPPENED! FOCUS ON THE QUESTION - NOT WETHER YOU BELIEVE THE INCIDENT HAPPENED OR NOT!
RP Members was this handled properly by the Junior Officer, SgtMaj, or the mother? What would you have done?
THIS WAS A REAL SITUATION THAT TOOK PLACE YESTERDAY 12/30/2015
CORRECTION: I've receive collaboration from another lady who also had firsthand knowledge of this incident in the MCX - "The "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold."
I apologize to all of those individuals that I stood firm on with, that it was young Marine Private (based on all the information I received), but the discussion, question, and feedback on how the situation was handled by the Junior Officer, Sgt Mgr, and Mother have been outstanding - that I don't apologize for - thanks
If anything, I thoroughly enjoyed the story and my wife called me at home immediately following the incident - she knew I would enjoy hearing about it. I just said, "that SgtMaj owns that young Marine!"
RP Members this one comes from the wife that works at Camp Pendleton, CA Marine Base in the MCX.
A young "Youth" Marine was in the check-out line with his mother and "CORRECTION" (put his cover on inside!) He was approached by a AD Marine (Junior Officer) and asked to remove the cover. Immediately the young "Youth" Marine took up the defensive and asked the junior officer "who the F*** are you?" The Junior Officer then got into the young "Youth" Marine's face and told him to have some respect and remove the cover - it escalated into a shouting match in the check-out line in the MCX. Coming from the back of the store there was a loud roar from a Sergeant Major in the Marines (built like a tank according to my wife). He bellowed, "both of you shut your mouth there are families in here!" The MCX went silent and several employees and Marines hit the deck (no kidding). The SgtMaj came to the front and grabbed the young "Youth" Marine the by collar escorting him and the Junior Officer out of the MCX with the Young "Youth" Marine's mother yelling, "don't touch my boy!"
Marines
Discipline
Regulation
Military bearing
What Would You Do
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 937
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A cover can and should be worn indoors as long as the person wearing it is also wearing a utility or cartridge belt
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I went into the PX once with about four of my junior troops. We were there on an exercise, and I don't even remember what post we were at. We walked in, removed our covers, took a few steps and at the checkout line was a full Colonel, in fatigues (this was the old days), with his cover on. My troops were just shaking their heads and saying "Look at that." As a young NCO, I think I was a SSG, I felt like I had to do something.
I walked over to the Colonel and whispered to him quietly and said, "Sir, with all due respect, I have some young troops with me, and I would truly appreciate you helping me set the example for them by removing your cover indoors, if you wouldn't mind." His face turned red, but with embarrassment, not anger, and he said, "Absolutely, Sergeant. I'm embarrassed to have done this in front of them." I said, "Sir, just by removing your cover now, they will see you honoring the tradition and having respect for you and for me for having recognized the issue and having dealt with it respectfully. So thank you." "Absolutely, Sergeant. And Thank You for being so polite about this." Issue resolved. He was polite about it. My troops thought I was awesome for having gotten an O-6 to remove his cover, and everyone was happy!
I walked over to the Colonel and whispered to him quietly and said, "Sir, with all due respect, I have some young troops with me, and I would truly appreciate you helping me set the example for them by removing your cover indoors, if you wouldn't mind." His face turned red, but with embarrassment, not anger, and he said, "Absolutely, Sergeant. I'm embarrassed to have done this in front of them." I said, "Sir, just by removing your cover now, they will see you honoring the tradition and having respect for you and for me for having recognized the issue and having dealt with it respectfully. So thank you." "Absolutely, Sergeant. And Thank You for being so polite about this." Issue resolved. He was polite about it. My troops thought I was awesome for having gotten an O-6 to remove his cover, and everyone was happy!
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The explanation offered by a civilian lady below makes more sense. If it's accurate then it explains a bit. She says she read about this on Facebook and responded due to being familiar with the situation. What she said is that the "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold. Not her quote, but my interpretation of her responses. Good news is I salute the group for their effort, bad news is that is wasn't quite working for this lad yet. I can only speculate but given a teen that has issues with authority and the presence of his Mom, if that was the case, we may see the reason for his reaction. The Lt comes on the scene and sees a deficiency. He tries to correct it but maybe not in the best manner. This is to be expected of most junior Officers, because they learn as they go. Had he quietly gotten the youth aside and addressed it calmly with the youth - and outside the influence of his Mom - he might have gotten a different outcome. A good starting point would have been to tactfully ask the lad what his unit was. Once the kid said he's not AD then Lt wishes him well with his future and it's a non-event. Live and learn. He assumed he was AD, corrected him openly and it triggered a response he hadn't planned for, due to the presence of Mom and the way it was presented. Now, add the SgtMaj, who sees a bad situation and jumps in the middle of it. Good for him, but he could have also handled it more discreetly. This is one for leadership discussion groups and training discussion. If the lady's story is accurate we can easily see the many actions that were taken based on assumptions vice facts. The lad was dead wrong and likely now knows this, but was acting on impulse and was already challenged with regard to authority issues. Both the Lt and SgtMaj were well intended, but if they had asked they would have learned they had zero authority over this civilian teen. Lesson here is look before you leap and don't assume anything. Take action based on facts and then with urgency appropriate to the situation, but with a level of tact. Classic example of good initiative, bad judgement.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
CWO3 (Join to see) Thanks for the clarification - tose I talked to including my wife swore up and down that the young man was an AD Marine. I appreciate your feedback and I humbly apologize to all those I professed to that this was an AD Marine, but I still think it was a great lesson in leadership on several different accounts. Thanks William!
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CWO3 (Join to see)
Agree totally on the leadership lesson Sir. I can't vouch for the lady's claim and was just bringing it up that she posted elsewhere here about it. Not questioning anyone's integrity in any way or defending anyone because some serious mistakes were made. Frankly, with some of the dumb stuff I've seen from current events, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it were an AD Marine. Nothing new though, because we've all had our 10% to deal with over the years. I retired in 98 and even then some junior Marines were far too salty for their own good. I had a couple of experiences with even junior NCO's running their mouth in a manner that I would have never dreamed of years before. Hell, we reported in to our first duty station after boot camp like we were still in boot camp. How long that lasts depends on the type of the unit, as the Combat Arms folks hold on to it as long as possible. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with it now, based on what I read on social media, because I have a low tolerance for it. I appreciate you sharing it and no matter who the participants were it reflects poorly in many ways. It's a good one for leadership challenge discussions at say NCO Academy - those "what would you do and here's what you should have done" type scenarios. Bad scene all the way around and thanks again for sharing.
I found the lady's posts if they matter. She may be wrong and it doesn't matter. I believe every word you said as you were told, and from your efforts here and elsewhere would never doubt anything you say. Based on all the responses it was a great discussion topic on leadership. It's unfortunate that some chose to question you for being the messenger. I think it was a good topic. Best wishes, Will.
Linda Deeren
>1 y
The young man wearing his cover was a Young Marine, which is a youth organization that my son was a part of, and we do teach them to take off their covers inside. I don't know why this young marine was defiant, except that a lot of the kids that come through there are defiant to authority and are in the program to improve them and get them straight.
Linda Deeren
>1 y
1LT William Clardy - I am not an "on-scene" reporter. I am a former Young Marine Instructor. I just happened to see this in my Facebook feed and had to check it out. We had some defiant youth in our unit both at Ft. Carson, CO and in Traverse City, MI. My son graduated in 2007 as a Master Gunnery Sgt. He is now a Staff Sgt. in the Army.
I found the lady's posts if they matter. She may be wrong and it doesn't matter. I believe every word you said as you were told, and from your efforts here and elsewhere would never doubt anything you say. Based on all the responses it was a great discussion topic on leadership. It's unfortunate that some chose to question you for being the messenger. I think it was a good topic. Best wishes, Will.
Linda Deeren
>1 y
The young man wearing his cover was a Young Marine, which is a youth organization that my son was a part of, and we do teach them to take off their covers inside. I don't know why this young marine was defiant, except that a lot of the kids that come through there are defiant to authority and are in the program to improve them and get them straight.
Linda Deeren
>1 y
1LT William Clardy - I am not an "on-scene" reporter. I am a former Young Marine Instructor. I just happened to see this in my Facebook feed and had to check it out. We had some defiant youth in our unit both at Ft. Carson, CO and in Traverse City, MI. My son graduated in 2007 as a Master Gunnery Sgt. He is now a Staff Sgt. in the Army.
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SPC Charles Batchelor
Depending on when it happened, almost all of the civilian auxiliaries are moving to newer uniforms due to BDU's not being available in the numbers they need. The YM could have been wearing the newer one and from a distance if an older cadet, the LT would not have known the difference.
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Hell yeah, that young Marine was totally out of line! Definitely needs a good wake up call!!!
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I can't really believe the young enlisted man would have disrespect when told by an officer to remove his cover. Doesn't sound like the Corps I retired from in 1979. The SgtMaj sounds like the one who was absolutely correct and this young Marine needs to be brought up on article 15 of the UCMJ. Maybe that would give him some insight as to how to respect his superiors.
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1st) Ask if the individual is aware of the Marine Corps policy an wearing headgear indoors.
2nd) State the facts of the policy.
3rd) If failure to understand persists, unload. An officer should never be demeaned by any SNCO in front of subordinates or in private. If a SNCO hasn't developed the tact it takes to use misgiving moments as opportunities teach, then that SNCO was promoted for all the wrong reasons. A SNCO's primary responsibility is to ensure the success of the officers appoint over him/her. not to breakdown the fabric that binds leadership principles.
2nd) State the facts of the policy.
3rd) If failure to understand persists, unload. An officer should never be demeaned by any SNCO in front of subordinates or in private. If a SNCO hasn't developed the tact it takes to use misgiving moments as opportunities teach, then that SNCO was promoted for all the wrong reasons. A SNCO's primary responsibility is to ensure the success of the officers appoint over him/her. not to breakdown the fabric that binds leadership principles.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SSgt Craig Danielson First, thanks for responding, but I need for you to return to the original question at the top. I received Facebook confirmation from a civilian lady that witness the event as well (so it did indeed happen), but she said is that the "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold. Based on that the Junior Officer most likely could have avoided the whole situation by not saying anything at all. Sorry for the confusion, but there was some great feedback from a Leadership standpoint throughout the various discussions. My apologies Craig!
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SSgt Craig Danielson
No worries sir. I had seen this same situation posted on a Marine news article, but even then it wasn't as thorough as what you stated. Thanks for your support.
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Can you say zhit detail.
Things have change since I've been in, that young marine would've been taken off and had a few slips and falls resulting in a few injuries. No zhit
Things have change since I've been in, that young marine would've been taken off and had a few slips and falls resulting in a few injuries. No zhit
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SGT Michael May First, thanks for responding, but I need for you to return to the original question at the top. The dynamic of this Question and post just changed based on a second eye witness from Facebook. I received Facebook confirmation from a civilian lady that witness the event as well (so it did indeed happen), but she said is that the "youth" was not an AD USMC, but part of a group of Young Marines. Her description of this group is that it is one for troubled youth to attempt to instill discipline and maybe bring them into the fold. Based on that the Junior Officer most likely could have avoided the whole situation by not saying anything at all. Sorry for the confusion, but there was some great feedback from a Leadership standpoint throughout the various discussions. My apologies Michael!
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SGT Michael May
No, that's no problem, I misinterpreted as well. I thought he was a marine soldier. Didn't realize he was part of a youth program. My apologies to you as well.
As a Army vet, I strongly believe in discipline throughout the ranks. The way I was disciplined/ taught helped me to be the soldier / leader during my time of service, as well as the man I am today. I do realize that time has changed and in all situations we must be willing to adapt and overcome to accomplish the mission.
As a Army vet, I strongly believe in discipline throughout the ranks. The way I was disciplined/ taught helped me to be the soldier / leader during my time of service, as well as the man I am today. I do realize that time has changed and in all situations we must be willing to adapt and overcome to accomplish the mission.
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