Posted on Sep 20, 2017
How should we handle students who are complaining about their PT session ending after the scheduled time?
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Situation: SHOW-ME Gold program (like ROTC but we all been through Basic and AIT as it is required) has PT from 0600-0700 before classes start. Some have an 8am class and they are allowed to leave at 07 if PT runs over. But people who don’t stay and do the cool down. So here’s the problem: soldiers are complaining about being dismissed at passed 07 even if they don’t have a 8am as they feel it’s
Platoon Leader
Training NCO
Platoon Sergeant
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 26
I'll be the contrarian here. I see problems with the planning and execution of the PT session, not with the people who are complaining.
If you only want to schedule one PT session, and that PT session is on the books from 0600-0700, then all PT-related activities need to occur during that one-hour window (stretching, warm up, exercises, cool down, etc.). If one hour is not enough, then start earlier, since you can't end later. The fact that some participants do not have classes at 0800 is immaterial. If they are complaining about being kept after the planned training timeline, then the leadership decision has played a role in creating that complaint. Own it, and fix the underlying problem. The problem isn't the attitudes; the problem is the decision that created the attitude.
I think the best options are to a) end at 0700 as planned, b) start earlier to give more time, or c) have separate PT sessions.
If you only want to schedule one PT session, and that PT session is on the books from 0600-0700, then all PT-related activities need to occur during that one-hour window (stretching, warm up, exercises, cool down, etc.). If one hour is not enough, then start earlier, since you can't end later. The fact that some participants do not have classes at 0800 is immaterial. If they are complaining about being kept after the planned training timeline, then the leadership decision has played a role in creating that complaint. Own it, and fix the underlying problem. The problem isn't the attitudes; the problem is the decision that created the attitude.
I think the best options are to a) end at 0700 as planned, b) start earlier to give more time, or c) have separate PT sessions.
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MSG (Join to see)
I concur with the LTC. the training schedule is there for reason. if it isn't being done to standard then the problem is with the planning.
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LTC Russ Smith
These are college students. They must attend classes on time. If Army ROTC personnel are causing them to miss class or be late for class by mismanaging PT, they are jeopardizing the commissioning of these cadets.
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I'm surprised by some of the responses here about the students being whiners and snowflakes. How about the cadre get their shit together? If they are supposed to be setting an example of how leaders should act, they are doing a crappy job. If these students took this PT example as the way things should be in the Army, then they will get to their units and run PT late, then when their troops don't have time to eat chow before the next formation because they have to clean the barracks, etc, that's supposed to be OK? Hardly. That's poor leadership and it's not taking care of the troops. There will be plenty of times in the Army when you have to work the troops late. Doing it because you can't plan a one hour PT session properly isn't one of them.
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CSM Charles Hayden
TSgt Joshua Duplin I an sorry you are so accustomed to incompetent leaders that is this is the ‘new norm’ for you!!
Someone needs to take charge and perform as a real leader!
Someone needs to take charge and perform as a real leader!
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OMFG.... These snowflakes are going to be the leadership of the Army in a few years? Wow.
When I was in ROTC back in the early 90s, PT was optional and everyone managed to pass the APFT every 6 months. I guess we had something called self-discipline. I'm with TSgt Joshua Duplin and make PT earlier in the morning. That'll teach those snowflakes that for every complaint, there is a solution that is even worse than the original complaint. Welcome to the Army!
When I was in ROTC back in the early 90s, PT was optional and everyone managed to pass the APFT every 6 months. I guess we had something called self-discipline. I'm with TSgt Joshua Duplin and make PT earlier in the morning. That'll teach those snowflakes that for every complaint, there is a solution that is even worse than the original complaint. Welcome to the Army!
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SGT (Join to see)
A lot of them won’t graduate OCS I guarantee. I don’t understand why they get mad about it. They say it has nothing to do with discipline lmao
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
They have a schedule - 0600-0700 - if they can't follow that schedule... the problem is on the program, not the students. It's not "whining" to expect a high-disciplined and executed program to start on time and end on time. That should really be what is expected.
Future officers must have good time-sense. I've had Commanders who would reschedule meetings for after duty hours if everyone who was supposed to be in the meeting wasn't on-time and prepared. 1300 meeting start time, if the Commander walks in and slides aren't ready to flip or butcher blocks aren't ready to go - he'd walk out and schedule for that evening. It only happens once or twice before people get there early. Same with the scheduled end-time. If it ends at 1600, it ENDS at 1600 - if the staff hasn't properly prepared their presentations and time, or have gone on tangents - too bad - at 1600, the Commander walks out.
If you have set times for things, follow them - THAT is discipline.
Future officers must have good time-sense. I've had Commanders who would reschedule meetings for after duty hours if everyone who was supposed to be in the meeting wasn't on-time and prepared. 1300 meeting start time, if the Commander walks in and slides aren't ready to flip or butcher blocks aren't ready to go - he'd walk out and schedule for that evening. It only happens once or twice before people get there early. Same with the scheduled end-time. If it ends at 1600, it ENDS at 1600 - if the staff hasn't properly prepared their presentations and time, or have gone on tangents - too bad - at 1600, the Commander walks out.
If you have set times for things, follow them - THAT is discipline.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
MAJ Bryan Zeski - Very true, sir. However, junior enlisted and even NCOs cannot just get up and leave a meeting, briefing, or event. These cadets certainly cannot just leave (at least the contracted ones cannot). I cannot even remember how many times I and my peers have waited well past 1800 for instructions from higher before going home. It has only been recently that Flag Officers have begun enforcing duty day limits. GEN Odierno was one of the first I heard of while he was in command of III Corps. MG Kurilla here at 82nd ABN has mandated that everyone is GONE by 1500 on Fridays unless there is critical work to do, and then that has to be OKed by his staff. Other than those two examples, being enlisted and having concrete times when you can leave rarely coincide.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
SSG(P) (Join to see) - So true. And how much BS was it to be waiting until 1800 for your PSG to come back and tell you what the PT uniform was? Total BS.
I felt that pain myself when I was enlisted. And it sucked. And I tried to make a point of NOT being that guy when I had the chance. That being said, ROTC is making Officers, not enlisted folks, so they should be given the example of what is right - not what is enlisted.
I agree that Cadets shouldn't just get up and leave - if under a legal obligation to stay - however, the PMS of that unit should be made aware of the issue so that he or she can enforce the standards set - which are time-based in this case (and in almost every case of PT). If this is a regular problem - and it sounds like it is - it is something that needs to be addressed by leadership.
I felt that pain myself when I was enlisted. And it sucked. And I tried to make a point of NOT being that guy when I had the chance. That being said, ROTC is making Officers, not enlisted folks, so they should be given the example of what is right - not what is enlisted.
I agree that Cadets shouldn't just get up and leave - if under a legal obligation to stay - however, the PMS of that unit should be made aware of the issue so that he or she can enforce the standards set - which are time-based in this case (and in almost every case of PT). If this is a regular problem - and it sounds like it is - it is something that needs to be addressed by leadership.
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