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Chaplain
Religion
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 36
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By definition, a chaplain is a religious guide. If an atheist wanted a religious guide, wouldn't they not be atheist? As far as I know the military provides mental health care so if counseling is what someone needed, wouldn't that be the avenue they would address?
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I have often wondered how an athiest chaplain would counsle folks in their time of need since they don't believe in God or any other diety. For example a junior enlisted person just learned his fsther died while he was deployed. What would the chaplain say? Would he give the kid a pat on the back and a cup of coffe followed by some lame remark? The purpose of a Chaplain is to provide spiritual counselling and guidance.
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SSG (Join to see)
However, chaplains are at the unit level. Mental health counselors are not. Additionally, most topics are off-the-record when talking to a chaplain, and will not potentially affect your career. When someone talks to a mental health counselor, it goes in the medical record and can potentially affect a security clearance and career.
PS, the actual title would be Humanist Chaplain, and there are several examples of those in existence in other nations military, and in universities. So, it is not without a basis for it to be adapted.
PS, the actual title would be Humanist Chaplain, and there are several examples of those in existence in other nations military, and in universities. So, it is not without a basis for it to be adapted.
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CPO Bernie Penkin
However under ADA anyone including military personnel can use EAM and see private counselors with no mention of it their record.
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SSG (Join to see)
CPO, define EAM for me. I am not sure of your use of the acronym. To me, it means External Auditory Meatus, and I am sure you don't mean that. :)
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SFC Rocky Gannon - Atheists do not receive a Chaplain because it is not a recognized religion. Even some atheists that I know do not consider themselves religious. We have gotten into many heated debates and discussions but agree that they are not a religion.
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SGT Javier Silva
SSG (Join to see) - I cannot debate against verified stories; however, I can argue against the argument not being valid. You said there must a first to establish a precedent; however, you mentioned areas not within the services. My argument was a precedent in the services, e.g. a "pilot" program. I must say that it still stands.
I would also like to add the definition, by Merriam-Webster, of
Chaplain: a priest or other Christian religious leader who performs religious services for a military group (such as the army) or for a prison, hospital, etc.
1: a clergyman in charge of a chapel
2: a clergyman officially attached to a branch of the military, to an institution, or to a family or court
3: a person chosen to conduct religious exercises (as at a meeting of a club or society)
4: a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop (as at a liturgical function)
Clergyman: a man who is a member of the clergy especially in a Christian church
: a member of the clergy
Clergy: people (such as priests) who are the leaders of a religion and who perform religious services.
1: a group ordained to perform pastoral or sacerdotal functions in a Christian church
2: the official or sacerdotal class of a non-Christian religion
Religion: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
1a : the state of a religious
b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 *archaic* : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
I would also like to add the definition, by Merriam-Webster, of
Chaplain: a priest or other Christian religious leader who performs religious services for a military group (such as the army) or for a prison, hospital, etc.
1: a clergyman in charge of a chapel
2: a clergyman officially attached to a branch of the military, to an institution, or to a family or court
3: a person chosen to conduct religious exercises (as at a meeting of a club or society)
4: a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop (as at a liturgical function)
Clergyman: a man who is a member of the clergy especially in a Christian church
: a member of the clergy
Clergy: people (such as priests) who are the leaders of a religion and who perform religious services.
1: a group ordained to perform pastoral or sacerdotal functions in a Christian church
2: the official or sacerdotal class of a non-Christian religion
Religion: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
1a : the state of a religious
b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 *archaic* : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
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SSG (Join to see)
Your argument is flawed, IMO, however, because you state there has not been a precedent in service. Yet, it seems you want to deny it because there has not been a precedent. Again, without a "first" there cannot be a precedent. There is a qualified applicant who is willing to serve that could fill this role.
Without that, it would be necessary to look outside the service to see if there is a precedent for a humanist chaplain, that serve the needs of the non-religious. And, in that situation, there are many such that exist, both foreign and domestic, in the civilian and military sectors.
While the definitions are nice, they do not fully explain the duties for a chaplain in a military role. However, a humanist chaplain would address the concerns of service members from the perspective of humanism. This would provide additional support for those who consider themselves humanist, or non-religious. It is important to remember that in the military the number of non-religious (those identifying as atheist, agnostic, or no preference) are one of the largest groups, outnumbering other religions except those who identify as christian. Is it fair to deny them the support they desire, and need?
Remember, chaplains are also able to fulfill a counseling role, without it going in a service members medical records. Whereas, if the service member visits a mental health counselor, to discuss the same issues, it does go in the medical records. That information can then be used to possibly adversely affect a security clearance, and the position which requires it.
Without that, it would be necessary to look outside the service to see if there is a precedent for a humanist chaplain, that serve the needs of the non-religious. And, in that situation, there are many such that exist, both foreign and domestic, in the civilian and military sectors.
While the definitions are nice, they do not fully explain the duties for a chaplain in a military role. However, a humanist chaplain would address the concerns of service members from the perspective of humanism. This would provide additional support for those who consider themselves humanist, or non-religious. It is important to remember that in the military the number of non-religious (those identifying as atheist, agnostic, or no preference) are one of the largest groups, outnumbering other religions except those who identify as christian. Is it fair to deny them the support they desire, and need?
Remember, chaplains are also able to fulfill a counseling role, without it going in a service members medical records. Whereas, if the service member visits a mental health counselor, to discuss the same issues, it does go in the medical records. That information can then be used to possibly adversely affect a security clearance, and the position which requires it.
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SGT Javier Silva
SSG (Join to see)
Precedents are also established by pilot programs. Look at Ranger School (I believe). Female Soldiers were not allowed to attend; however, a few years ago, the DoD started allowing women, first as a pilot, to attend. The pilot was created to set precedent and to see whether or not females could actually complete Ranger school. Had that first female failed, what would've happened?
Having worked in a security clearance process, I can tell you that, it is not used against you. OPM, DoD, DoE, NSA, CIA and other agencies who have adjudication power do not have access to medical records...HIPAA laws. Unless, you threaten bodily harm against someone, your medical record is not exposed.
Precedents are also established by pilot programs. Look at Ranger School (I believe). Female Soldiers were not allowed to attend; however, a few years ago, the DoD started allowing women, first as a pilot, to attend. The pilot was created to set precedent and to see whether or not females could actually complete Ranger school. Had that first female failed, what would've happened?
Having worked in a security clearance process, I can tell you that, it is not used against you. OPM, DoD, DoE, NSA, CIA and other agencies who have adjudication power do not have access to medical records...HIPAA laws. Unless, you threaten bodily harm against someone, your medical record is not exposed.
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SSG (Join to see)
Good points. Unfortunately, HIPAA can be overridden with a court order, if necessary. Possible reasons include drug use documented in medical records, that could impact an individual (however, specific procedures have to be performed for legal drug/alcohol tests, otherwise not admissable).
Yet, what is a reason to deny non-religious service members access to a chaplain who represents the second largest group in the military? By accepting the fully qualified applicant, who did have an endorsing agency, this precedent could have been met. The reason it is not being done is due to the blatant religious discrimination in congress, where several congress members have stated their opposition based on religious reasons.
Yet, what is a reason to deny non-religious service members access to a chaplain who represents the second largest group in the military? By accepting the fully qualified applicant, who did have an endorsing agency, this precedent could have been met. The reason it is not being done is due to the blatant religious discrimination in congress, where several congress members have stated their opposition based on religious reasons.
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By Atheist (A - without, theo[deo] - God), are we to believe that as a group the belief is that there is no God? Why would someone who truly believes there is no God or spiritual being beyond this realm need spiritual guidance? Just want further clarity on the issue.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the idea behind a chaplain to provide religious guidance? Also, as I understand, a chaplain is versed in multiple religions, which is why they can counsel so many, there should be no need for an "Atheist Chaplain" because chaplains should already be versed in how to counsel an Atheist. Next order up, the chaplain is NOT the only one who has confidentiality. I have read a few posts of people afraid of the stigma of behavioral health, let me tell all of you, your obligation to your unit is to tell them you have an appointment, not to tell them what it is for. If you self refer yourself, provided you dont say anything incriminating (like you wanna kill yourself or someone else) they too have confidentiality laws. and lets not forget about MFLAC(those people who always hang out and say "if you ever need someone to talk to...") they too, have confidentiality laws(every unit has them so if you havent found one yet, ask around), and God forbid you confide in your battle buddies. There is no need for another useless title in the military, let alone an oxymoronic one. If I offended anyone, I'm not really sorry, please educate me on how im not being empathetic enough; and to everyone else, I hope I gave you, if nothing else, a couple more options to think about. Have a good one
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chap·lain noun \ˈcha-plən\
1: a clergyman in charge of a chapel
2: a clergyman officially attached to a branch of the military, to an institution, or to a family or court
3: a person chosen to conduct religious exercises (as at a meeting of a club or society)
4: a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop (as at a liturgical function)
athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
1: ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
Do we see why the whole "Atheist Chaplain" thing doesn't work? I mean, come on now..
And you know.. just because you're "atheist" doesn't mean that you can't go and seek counseling or guidance from a Chaplain. Everytime that I've talked to a Chaplain, God or religion hasn't even come into the conversation unless I brought it up.
1: a clergyman in charge of a chapel
2: a clergyman officially attached to a branch of the military, to an institution, or to a family or court
3: a person chosen to conduct religious exercises (as at a meeting of a club or society)
4: a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop (as at a liturgical function)
athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
1: ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
Do we see why the whole "Atheist Chaplain" thing doesn't work? I mean, come on now..
And you know.. just because you're "atheist" doesn't mean that you can't go and seek counseling or guidance from a Chaplain. Everytime that I've talked to a Chaplain, God or religion hasn't even come into the conversation unless I brought it up.
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SSG Gordon Hill
I am atheist, and when ever a person of faith finds out that I am a Atheist they always questioned why and they do their best and hardest to change my beleif, religions try just as hard to force their beleifs upon the world, more wars have been fought in the name of god then anything else, I am a Atheist because I have read the bible.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Gordon Hill I am a theist, however I'm not one of the ones who believes everyone who doesn't believe as I do is going to hell. If I really did believe that, I think I would be driven to do everything in my power to convert people as well... I imagine if Genghis Khan had followed such a religion, he would have conquered the whole world.
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SSG Gordon Hill
So you believe in a higher power, you suggest that if Genghis Kahn used religion he could have conquered the world, our nation he was founded on the desire to be fre of religion and back in the colony days less people went less often to church. Religion is a tool of the government to control people how can you beleive in something that is not real and lets little child die cancer, we jesus stated that if two shall ask they shall receive so when the parents of child pray god or jesus to save their child from cancer, but the child dies any ways where is the promise he said he would deliever. prove to me that there is a god without referring to the bible of some other mythology book written by man.
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SSG Gordon Hill
According to the Merriam-Webster dicitonary this is the definition of atheist
athe·ist
noun \ˈā-thē-ist\
: a person who believes that God does not exist
: one who believes that there is no deity
athe·ist
noun \ˈā-thē-ist\
: a person who believes that God does not exist
: one who believes that there is no deity
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If the atheists/humanists, etc. can find a school that will give them the credit hours to meet the chaplain minimum requirements - then they should go for it- and good luck by the way. Perhaps it is simplifying the debate to state a board certified psychologist or a Unitarian Universalist military chaplain (they are out there) couldn't attend to most of their questions or issues.
From what I have seen, the only atheist school out there that is accredited is the New College of Humanities in London- and at $30K per year for this training, a bit expensive for the average "chaplain" to pay back. Per the chaplain reg's (and no leniency should be granted IMHO), a person trying to get in should meet the following minimum requirements.
•You must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should certify that you are:
◦A clergy person in your denomination or faith group.
◦Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army.
◦Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.
•Educationally, you must:
◦Possess a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours.
◦Possess a graduate degree in theological or religious studies, plus have earned at least a total of 72 semester hours in graduate work in these fields of study.
-Jeff
From what I have seen, the only atheist school out there that is accredited is the New College of Humanities in London- and at $30K per year for this training, a bit expensive for the average "chaplain" to pay back. Per the chaplain reg's (and no leniency should be granted IMHO), a person trying to get in should meet the following minimum requirements.
•You must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should certify that you are:
◦A clergy person in your denomination or faith group.
◦Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army.
◦Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.
•Educationally, you must:
◦Possess a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours.
◦Possess a graduate degree in theological or religious studies, plus have earned at least a total of 72 semester hours in graduate work in these fields of study.
-Jeff
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SSG (Join to see)
@Capt Jeff Quinn, Unitarian Universalist Chaplains are a good alternative until Athiests have established the processes and organizations necessary to support Athiest Chaplains. I also don't see why it would be difficult for an Athiest to get a graduate degree in religious studies.
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Atheists have Chaplains...they are called "Chaplains". Chaplains, regardless of faith, are available to talk to SM's, no matter what sect/caste/religion/whatever the SM is... it's part of their job.
If you need to talk to somebody, and a Chaplain makes you squeamish with the possible god talk, you can call the vet center, your director of psychological health, military one source, the VA( not the best with the current backlog)... there are literally dozens of options. I told my Joe's flat out that I'm available 24/7, and anyone who tries to make someone feel bad for seeking help will be pushing large piles of rocks into small piles of rocks until *I* get tired.
We, as leaders and military members, NEED to remove the stigma associated with seeking out mental help when it is needed, no matter what source the help is sought from; otherwise our soldiers/airmen/etc will never look for help until it is too late. Battle losses are unfortunate, but acceptable; losses from people who refused to seek help because their peers would mock them is not only unacceptable, but disgraceful. Look after the man and/or woman to your left and right and realize they ARE your brother and sister in uniform and then react accordingly.
If you need to talk to somebody, and a Chaplain makes you squeamish with the possible god talk, you can call the vet center, your director of psychological health, military one source, the VA( not the best with the current backlog)... there are literally dozens of options. I told my Joe's flat out that I'm available 24/7, and anyone who tries to make someone feel bad for seeking help will be pushing large piles of rocks into small piles of rocks until *I* get tired.
We, as leaders and military members, NEED to remove the stigma associated with seeking out mental help when it is needed, no matter what source the help is sought from; otherwise our soldiers/airmen/etc will never look for help until it is too late. Battle losses are unfortunate, but acceptable; losses from people who refused to seek help because their peers would mock them is not only unacceptable, but disgraceful. Look after the man and/or woman to your left and right and realize they ARE your brother and sister in uniform and then react accordingly.
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An Atheist wanting a chaplain is called a hypocrite or not a real Atheist. I don't care how bad of shape I'm in, I don't want some mumbo jumbo being spewed over me. Now if the Chaplain wanted to just talk as person, not as a religious figure, thats fine. Be a man, a human, an officer, a fellow veteran but leave the book and collar outside.
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SSG (Join to see)
This reply is not only wrong, but infuriating.
An Atheist wanting a chaplain is a person asking for help from a source that is available 24/7, not a person seeking spiritual guidance. Chaplains are trained to listen and act for the welfare of anyone who seeks them out; the religious aspect is reserved for those who WANT it, not for anyone who comes to them.
Calling an Atheist a hypocrite because they sought out help is the exact kind of stigma that we, as leaders, MUST squash before it has a chance to fester.
An Atheist wanting a chaplain is a person asking for help from a source that is available 24/7, not a person seeking spiritual guidance. Chaplains are trained to listen and act for the welfare of anyone who seeks them out; the religious aspect is reserved for those who WANT it, not for anyone who comes to them.
Calling an Atheist a hypocrite because they sought out help is the exact kind of stigma that we, as leaders, MUST squash before it has a chance to fester.
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Seems to me that "Atheist" and "Chaplain" are mutually exclusive terms. If you want confidentiality there's only two reliable places.....Priest/minister/whatever and Doctor. May not seem fair, but who ever said life was fair anyhow? I'm not unsympathetic, but we all pay a price for our ways (optional or not).
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