Posted on Mar 29, 2018
I have conflicting feelings over this. I know that open carry is a thing in Texas, but who crossed the line, if anyone?
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CJ Grisham, President of Open Carry Texas, Army veteran and recent candidate for State Representative in District 55, along with a couple of other people was arrested yesterday in Olmos Park, TX (Bexar County). He was tazed and subsequently injured in that arrest with a head injury and was hospitalized. I was told that the head injury was a large gash on the back of the head. He also suffered numerous scrapes on his wrists and arms.
Grisham and crew were legally opening carrying pistols and long guns in response to an event last week when an Olmos Park police officer drew guns on and detained someone with a protest sign solely for the reason of open carrying a pistol (which turned out to be a training fake).
Grisham had a phone conversation with the Olmos Park Police Chief, Rene Valenciano about their policies, etc. in which the chief seemed entirely unconcerned with his officers illegally detaining people for a perfectly legal activity. (The conversation will be linked in the comments below).
Grisham and crew went to Olmos Park yesterday and were legally and peacefully open carrying and got arrested for it. There is a video of the arrest. There was no articulated probable cause for the arrest. The police showed up, including Chief Valenciano and ordered Grisham and his crew to the ground. Grisham at least refused. It was Valenciano that personally tazed and arrested Grisham.
Between the phone call and video from the site, it's very clear this was an illegal arrest by an oath breaking police officer and they will be held accountable.
Grisham and crew were legally opening carrying pistols and long guns in response to an event last week when an Olmos Park police officer drew guns on and detained someone with a protest sign solely for the reason of open carrying a pistol (which turned out to be a training fake).
Grisham had a phone conversation with the Olmos Park Police Chief, Rene Valenciano about their policies, etc. in which the chief seemed entirely unconcerned with his officers illegally detaining people for a perfectly legal activity. (The conversation will be linked in the comments below).
Grisham and crew went to Olmos Park yesterday and were legally and peacefully open carrying and got arrested for it. There is a video of the arrest. There was no articulated probable cause for the arrest. The police showed up, including Chief Valenciano and ordered Grisham and his crew to the ground. Grisham at least refused. It was Valenciano that personally tazed and arrested Grisham.
Between the phone call and video from the site, it's very clear this was an illegal arrest by an oath breaking police officer and they will be held accountable.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 427
Texas is an "Open Carry" state, BUT there are narrow prohibitions to open carry in the state.
To answer the question, we must apply Texas law as listed under Section 30.07 of the Texas Penal Code (https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.30.htm#30.07). Based on my reading of the statute, my Texas CCW training, and the account provided above, it is not clear that Grisham or any one else involved in the event were in violation of Open Carry restrictions. They MAY have been in violation, or they MAY NOT have been in violation.
First, the account is slim and slanted in a way that places the Police in a bad light. The account refers to a video of the arrest, but no link is provided. I found a video account here (https://youtu.be/P8HD30xkSXk), and subsequent video coverage ongoing. This has been more illuminating, but not particularly decisive on their own merits.
Among the news reports cataloged on YouTube after he incident, Olmos Park has a city ordinance that countermands Texas State Law and prohibits the open carry of firearms, which apparently was the genesis of the "event" listed above -- i.e. a Open Carry protest of the Olmos Park ordinance.
So, we have a few questions to wrestle with. First, is the Olmos Park ordinance legal? According to an originalist view of the U.S. Constitution (notably Amendments II and XIV), the Olmos Park ordinance is certainly unconstitutional. But there are numerous statutes and ordinances across the nation that violate the Constitution. I could not find anything within the Texas Law that authorizes or prohibits a municipality passing a law against Open Carry. The Olmos Park government apparently believes that they do have the power or right to, and Open Carry Texas believes that they do not have such power or right. Ergo, we have a conflict that Open Carry Texas sought to reconcile through Civil Disobedience -- and thus the ensuing conflict referenced above.
Second, did Open Carry Texas cross the line? From the point of view of the Olmos Park Government and Police, the answer is an emphatic YES! I would contend NO! The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is an unalienable right protected under the U.S. Constitution. It should not even require a Texas State Law to protect this right; however, such a law exists and reinforces the Natural Right. Moreover, when confronted by what they perceived as "abusive" and "unlawful" exercise of police force, the Open Carry Texas participants did not respond with in-kind deadly force -- even though some might argue they had every right and authority to exercise by our own Foundational precedent (Note: Lexington and Concord). So, while OCT certainly creeped a toe right up to it, I believe any reasonable person would have to conclude that OCT did NOT "cross the line."
Third, did OPPD cross the line? When confronted with what they felt was an "armed and hostile" threat (from their perspective), they certainly may have felt they were well within their authority. Moreover, they were enforcing a municipal law that they felt was valid. However, If we view the municipal law through the permissions to restrict open carry afforded by Texas State Law, the OPPD most assuredly cross the line.
Section 30.07 of the Texas Penal Code DOES grant limited restrictions to Open Carry of Firearms. But, even under these, the offense of carrying the weapon where it is treated as a "...Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart." If we assume that Olmos Park was exercising the right of a "property owner" under this statute, their first duty was to inform the OCT folks that they had a duty to depart -- at which point only a Class C Misdemeanor was in play. At this point, the OPPD may have attempted to defuse a powder keg by issuing citations or summons -- which would have undermined the optics OCT was looking for. OPPD decided to play into the OCT plans and escalate the situation by executing felony arrests of an "armed and dangerous" suspect -- and it would appear they relished doing so. Then the question become, did they have to slam CJ Grisham to the ground and taze him? I am not a trained law enforcement officer, but it seems to me that the force used was excessive, executed in anger.
Grisham contacted the Chief in a phone call and asked how OPPD would respond to an open carry citizen. The Chief acknowledged that Texas is an Open Carry State and stated that is not OPPD police policy to draw down on person legally open carrying a firearm (Phone call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_X21tsxib0).
So, did OPPD cross the line? Apparently, YES. In subsequent reporting in the intervening months since this incident, Olmos Park has dismissed the charges and returned the firearms to the owners arrested during the event (https://youtu.be/-gj8eG-NX8I). According to the statement made by Grisham providing more background regarding the incident and the video evidence provided (https://youtu.be/88-lpSvAUeg?t=1152), the OPPD, under direct leadership of the Chief, unreasonably and in violation of OPPD police, "crossed the line."
To answer the question, we must apply Texas law as listed under Section 30.07 of the Texas Penal Code (https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.30.htm#30.07). Based on my reading of the statute, my Texas CCW training, and the account provided above, it is not clear that Grisham or any one else involved in the event were in violation of Open Carry restrictions. They MAY have been in violation, or they MAY NOT have been in violation.
First, the account is slim and slanted in a way that places the Police in a bad light. The account refers to a video of the arrest, but no link is provided. I found a video account here (https://youtu.be/P8HD30xkSXk), and subsequent video coverage ongoing. This has been more illuminating, but not particularly decisive on their own merits.
Among the news reports cataloged on YouTube after he incident, Olmos Park has a city ordinance that countermands Texas State Law and prohibits the open carry of firearms, which apparently was the genesis of the "event" listed above -- i.e. a Open Carry protest of the Olmos Park ordinance.
So, we have a few questions to wrestle with. First, is the Olmos Park ordinance legal? According to an originalist view of the U.S. Constitution (notably Amendments II and XIV), the Olmos Park ordinance is certainly unconstitutional. But there are numerous statutes and ordinances across the nation that violate the Constitution. I could not find anything within the Texas Law that authorizes or prohibits a municipality passing a law against Open Carry. The Olmos Park government apparently believes that they do have the power or right to, and Open Carry Texas believes that they do not have such power or right. Ergo, we have a conflict that Open Carry Texas sought to reconcile through Civil Disobedience -- and thus the ensuing conflict referenced above.
Second, did Open Carry Texas cross the line? From the point of view of the Olmos Park Government and Police, the answer is an emphatic YES! I would contend NO! The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is an unalienable right protected under the U.S. Constitution. It should not even require a Texas State Law to protect this right; however, such a law exists and reinforces the Natural Right. Moreover, when confronted by what they perceived as "abusive" and "unlawful" exercise of police force, the Open Carry Texas participants did not respond with in-kind deadly force -- even though some might argue they had every right and authority to exercise by our own Foundational precedent (Note: Lexington and Concord). So, while OCT certainly creeped a toe right up to it, I believe any reasonable person would have to conclude that OCT did NOT "cross the line."
Third, did OPPD cross the line? When confronted with what they felt was an "armed and hostile" threat (from their perspective), they certainly may have felt they were well within their authority. Moreover, they were enforcing a municipal law that they felt was valid. However, If we view the municipal law through the permissions to restrict open carry afforded by Texas State Law, the OPPD most assuredly cross the line.
Section 30.07 of the Texas Penal Code DOES grant limited restrictions to Open Carry of Firearms. But, even under these, the offense of carrying the weapon where it is treated as a "...Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart." If we assume that Olmos Park was exercising the right of a "property owner" under this statute, their first duty was to inform the OCT folks that they had a duty to depart -- at which point only a Class C Misdemeanor was in play. At this point, the OPPD may have attempted to defuse a powder keg by issuing citations or summons -- which would have undermined the optics OCT was looking for. OPPD decided to play into the OCT plans and escalate the situation by executing felony arrests of an "armed and dangerous" suspect -- and it would appear they relished doing so. Then the question become, did they have to slam CJ Grisham to the ground and taze him? I am not a trained law enforcement officer, but it seems to me that the force used was excessive, executed in anger.
Grisham contacted the Chief in a phone call and asked how OPPD would respond to an open carry citizen. The Chief acknowledged that Texas is an Open Carry State and stated that is not OPPD police policy to draw down on person legally open carrying a firearm (Phone call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_X21tsxib0).
So, did OPPD cross the line? Apparently, YES. In subsequent reporting in the intervening months since this incident, Olmos Park has dismissed the charges and returned the firearms to the owners arrested during the event (https://youtu.be/-gj8eG-NX8I). According to the statement made by Grisham providing more background regarding the incident and the video evidence provided (https://youtu.be/88-lpSvAUeg?t=1152), the OPPD, under direct leadership of the Chief, unreasonably and in violation of OPPD police, "crossed the line."
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SSG Jeffrey Leake
LTC John Wilson Sir, I had put links to two videos of the incident, and one for the phone call between the Chief and Grisham. I have no clue what has happened to them. You bring up a lot of valid points and information and I appreciate it. I've learned a lot in the two years since this was posted.
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The issue of "Legal" open carry is based on the law in Texas: One can carry openly only IF he also has a concealed carry license. In order for the OP to state that the person arrested was "Legally" carrying openly, he would have to confirm that the person arrested actually had a CCW. Texas is not a "Constitutional Carry" state (like Arizona, for instance). This subject is covered in CCW classes in Texas.
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SSG Jeffrey Leake
Thanks for that info, SSG Hank Ortega. That's one of the things I was wondering about. Didn't know that you have to have a CCW to open carry there.
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It's got to political, this police chief who conducted himself in an unprofessional manner, apparently the police chief in this case does not want to accept Texas Law, if you have a conceal carry license and are abiding all the laws on the books, why harrass them, taze them, and the victim has every right to SUE for his injuries and file an IAB report on the police chief and his officers for their actions, might be able to get the Texas Rangers to investigate
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PO2 Jack LaBarge
There is a Real difference between the Chef of Police and the County SO. THE police is and should be though of as a Political appointment, the SO. ELECTED by the People! The Police act as the arm to the City Mayor and city Council! Don’t like your Police? Remove your Mayor, cIty Council! Elect people that stand for and Honor the Constitution and Bill of Rights! That simple!
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If I remember correctly that this has not been the only incident involving this police chief and open carry. Sounds like it maybe time for a civil law suit.
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Violation of constitutional rights. If we while deployed aren't allowed to shoot until we seem the carrier a threat, then police should be way better about doing that to our own citizens.
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I am probably going to be the only one with this type of response. But why as a state or country do we need to regress back to the days of the cowboys? I know we have a second admendment but it does not state anywhere that open carry should be an ongoing policy. Instead of challenging the sheriff over a bad ordinance the sergeant and his crew should work to overturn the ordinance and return to a policy of no weapons anywhere in public. Civility is better than an armed populace. That's why we have a police force.
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SSG Hank Ortega
When seconds count, the police are minutes away. Second amendment says "shall not be abridged", so mode of carry is up to the individual. Any restriction on a Right means it is no longer a Right.
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These officers need to be fired and arrested. They swore an oath which they did not uphold! I can see if the officers ask for I.D to ensure they were legally allowed to carry but that's not what they did. What those officers did do was violate their 2nd Amendment rights which " Shall NOT be infringed ". Police have a bad habit of arresting people who have broken no laws and this needs to change. Police need to be held accountable for their actions. Police are there to serve and to protect, to uphold the law, not operate above it or outside of it.
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This lends credence to the statement that it is just as important to know when to do something as it is to know how to do it. The process is what i have to digest, It is pointless to argue with someone who does not have the cognitive ability to understand your view point. There are other means of communicating and it seems that when we do not move effectively and expeditiously we will encounter challenges in communication. There is one more thing that I have learned in over six decades and that is everyone has their opinion and when we fail to respect that, some people are willing to go to drastic lengths to express themselves.
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Lawsuit time. It sorts things out in Court. then again, this is Bexar County. San Antonio mindset. It's a bey-har.
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