Posted on Oct 21, 2016
“I'm going to fail height-weight on purpose and get booted” – how would you handle this?
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This actually happened to me while I was a battery XO in Hawaii. My brigade had just gotten back from OIF and we were in that weird period of tons of people leaving the unit, and tons of new people coming in. I was in the motor pool like a good XO and one of the guys came up to me and asked to chat in private – he was a SPC (E-4) who was on soft shoe profile and had been for a few months. He was also on some PT profile, which many were skeptical of but that’s not the point. He was also quite overweight and in bad physical shape.
“I don’t want to be in the Army anymore,” he told me. “I’m just planning to keep failing height-weight over and over until I get booted out.” So I talked with him and we went back and forth about what’s really going on with him, etc. But he just stayed firm on: (1) wanting to get out of the Army ASAP; and (2) planning to put no effort into passing height-weight, to get booted.
Obviously I know what actions I took here but I don’t want to spoil it for everyone. How would you have responded in this situation?
“I don’t want to be in the Army anymore,” he told me. “I’m just planning to keep failing height-weight over and over until I get booted out.” So I talked with him and we went back and forth about what’s really going on with him, etc. But he just stayed firm on: (1) wanting to get out of the Army ASAP; and (2) planning to put no effort into passing height-weight, to get booted.
Obviously I know what actions I took here but I don’t want to spoil it for everyone. How would you have responded in this situation?
Height and Weight
Army Regulations
UCMJ
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 259
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I would make sure all the paperwork was correct to ensure that the Soldier's journey to get out of the Army was as quick and smooth as possible. The faster you can get a person out like that, the better. He was more than likely a drain of resources and on the system. Those Soldiers have it all figured out and trying to help them stay in is a lost cause.
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I think we all experienced folks like this. I would want to know first and foremost ,why? What is the root cause? Maybe an underlining issue that needs to be addressed. If not and they truly want to bail, they signed up for x # of yrs commitment , can't just resign. I (others as required) would explore all options pro and cons-seek feedback and help the individual make the best possible choice with the understanding by intentionally failing a job requirement is dereliction of duty.
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Willful dereliction of duty as described under Article 92. Chaptering him out with a general discharge just because he doesn't want to be in the Army is being too kind. Courts Martial or FG AR-15 to feel some pain, then kick his ass to the curb.
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SGT Chris Padgett
SPC John McDuffie - You couldn't be more right! I honestly wonder sometime if those hard stripes don't make people stupid or just oblivious.
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SGT Timothy Stuart
SGT Chris Padgett - Having worn hard stripes in not one but two branches of the military, it does not make those of us who wear stripes stupid or oblivious. What it does is makes us leaders.
If we are doing our job properly as a leader we are setting a standard and helping those entrusted to us to meet that standard. We do not get to the position of being NonCommissioned Officers by just accepting giving up or giving in, either by ourselves or our Soldiers/Marines/Sailors/Airmen. It's not always easy, nor does it tend to make one popular, but that is our job as NonCommissioned Officers, Warrant Officers, and Comissioned Officers.
I would question why you feel wearing stripes makes NCOs stupid or oblivious as well. I find that thought curious.
If we are doing our job properly as a leader we are setting a standard and helping those entrusted to us to meet that standard. We do not get to the position of being NonCommissioned Officers by just accepting giving up or giving in, either by ourselves or our Soldiers/Marines/Sailors/Airmen. It's not always easy, nor does it tend to make one popular, but that is our job as NonCommissioned Officers, Warrant Officers, and Comissioned Officers.
I would question why you feel wearing stripes makes NCOs stupid or oblivious as well. I find that thought curious.
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CPL Clyde Willis
SPC John McDuffie I've been out of the army for 13 years. I learned a lot while I was in that has helped me be successful out here. I learned a lot about myself, the world, and toxic leadership. Your remarks are SPOT ON. Toxic leaders often thrive in the army. Out here they rarely get very far because subordinates will just walk away and find a better leader.
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This actually used to be a common practice in the medical field about 15 years ago. Doctors would come in, get their medical bills paid off, go to schools and once they got everything they needed, willfully fail ht/wt so they could get out and go into private practice.
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SPC Jim Johnson
That is very true, Others go to VA and work for so many years. Then quit as soon as they bills are paid off. Seen it happen at to many VA location.
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SSG (Join to see)
After 30 years in the Medics I have not seen this occur. Doctors Join for two things an Internship and Residency. Which Calculates 6 to 8 years of a commitment to the Military. The Internships and Residencies are Calculated down to the Day. So if a Physician decides to willfully fail that would affect their Credentialing once Internship and Residency were complete. I saw the Opposite occur in 1983 in Georgia. The Hospital had a Pediatric Neurosurgeon. A brilliant man, but, he couldn't do 3 pushups. The company commander wanted him out and started the paper work. The Hospital Commander blew his lid. He stopped it saying "Where in the Hell am I going to find another one?" Pediatric Neurosurgeons don't grow on trees!" Regardless of his inability to do push up or maintain his weight his skills as a Pediatric Neurosurgeon out weighed his inabilities.
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Help him separate from the military in the correct manner. Encourage him to try and pass the test. If he still insists, then he's obviously not mentally fit to serve, so try and get him out on a medical discharge. Don't be punitive unless you can't help it -he obviously does not want to be there anymore, but there is no reason to ruin his chances with the VA. Just help him get out any way you can.
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PO2 Samantha Day
I'm curious... how can you consider his willful decision to be overweight to be a medical condition? He voiced a choice and in no way should get a medical discharge, that is only rewarding bad behavior and setting the sad state for his future. In my opinion...
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Unfortunately you don't really have a choice if that's his intent. I don't know about Army, but the Marines literally get 2 choices. You either make progress to lose the weight or you get kicked out. If he's not even going to make progress, then you are just wasting your time on him. You can't force him to eat right and you can't force him to exercise.
So my recommendation would be to get the command involved. He's not going to get off that easy. For Marines, you had 6 months to lose the weight and be back in standards. Well if it's the same for Army, that's 6 months that he could spend every day and night scrubbing the COs and SgtMajs toilets. He doesn't like it, well too bad. That's the path he wanted to take. Time to live with it.
So my recommendation would be to get the command involved. He's not going to get off that easy. For Marines, you had 6 months to lose the weight and be back in standards. Well if it's the same for Army, that's 6 months that he could spend every day and night scrubbing the COs and SgtMajs toilets. He doesn't like it, well too bad. That's the path he wanted to take. Time to live with it.
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
CWO2 Shelby DuBois - I completely understand. My reenlistment package was denied in favor of someone who had a higher belt than I. Well after he cashed his reenlistment bonus check, he popped on a piss test and I had to escort him to do his checking out. Couldn't take his boat space though because that was already allocated.
I've dealt with a lot of different types in the military. You are correct. It's all about finding out what's dropping his motivation. Some just feel down because they figured we'd all be kicking down doors and taking names. Others don't fully grasp the seriousness of our contribution to the fight at hand.
It is a shame when there are people who are out fighting to get in and in fighting to get out. No one can be content with the grass in their own lawn. Always looking for the greener patch on the other side.
I've dealt with a lot of different types in the military. You are correct. It's all about finding out what's dropping his motivation. Some just feel down because they figured we'd all be kicking down doors and taking names. Others don't fully grasp the seriousness of our contribution to the fight at hand.
It is a shame when there are people who are out fighting to get in and in fighting to get out. No one can be content with the grass in their own lawn. Always looking for the greener patch on the other side.
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SSG Mark Franzen
I think that you could help yourself by going to a weight loss program I was one time over weight I was 225 lbs I went on runs and watch what I ate I and work out as much I could .I dropped down to 152 lbs in 15 weeks. So just put your mind to it and work hard and look.
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
SSG Mark Franzen - I'm honestly not sure who you are speaking to. No one in my original comment or the subsequent comments are talking about being personally overweight. Even the topic question is coming from an officer regarding another soldier in his charge. So no one is talking about personally being overweight.
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SSG Mark Franzen
CPL Goolsby the Army is the same way it was like that when I was in it may have changed but I doubt it good luck to you. SSG MarkFranzen USA Veteran
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Got To meet the standards... or find a new Job... That damn fork did not make you Fat...
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1) Find out why he wants out. Maybe it is something that can be addressed. Does he dislike his job? Is he having personnel issues? Doesn't like his shift? Causing issues with family? Hates the changes that have come along in the last 8 years? Doesn't want to take chance of being deploying to war zone?
2) Remind him that it is not a quick process to get out for not meeting weight standards. He could actually end up with a dishonorable discharge if he is refusing to obey orders such as going to gym, working out and such. In the Air Force it can take a while before they kick you out because it depends on the people in charge if they want to say you are not making progress.
3) Step 3 will depend on what you get out of the person for reasons why they want out.
4) Send to talk to counselors who may be able to address some spiritual or mental issues that are causing this.
5) Remind them that trying to fail the test can have physical issues that may not be easily fixed when getting out.
6) If everything else fails then you can remind them that they are still in the military and there are rules and regulations they agreed to when signing up. If it's their first enlistment then you could break out the punishment dialogue about what could happen to make life miserable while he waits to get out. If they have been in longer remind them that they would be wasting their years in towards retirement.
2) Remind him that it is not a quick process to get out for not meeting weight standards. He could actually end up with a dishonorable discharge if he is refusing to obey orders such as going to gym, working out and such. In the Air Force it can take a while before they kick you out because it depends on the people in charge if they want to say you are not making progress.
3) Step 3 will depend on what you get out of the person for reasons why they want out.
4) Send to talk to counselors who may be able to address some spiritual or mental issues that are causing this.
5) Remind them that trying to fail the test can have physical issues that may not be easily fixed when getting out.
6) If everything else fails then you can remind them that they are still in the military and there are rules and regulations they agreed to when signing up. If it's their first enlistment then you could break out the punishment dialogue about what could happen to make life miserable while he waits to get out. If they have been in longer remind them that they would be wasting their years in towards retirement.
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