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Posted on Sep 27, 2017
I'm looking for the regulation or TC on MPs standing at attention or parade rest while under arms on duty. Which TC/FM should I check?
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So far I have checked through STP 21-24-SMCT, TC 7-21.13, Military Police Leader's Handbook FM 3-19.4 and Soldier's Manual MOS 31B STP 19-31B1-SM.
I am all well aware I need to salute an officer as per customs and courtesies. Yes on occasion the salute may be delayed as we deal with an immediate situation that makes it impractical/unsafe. The question I've been looking at is while on duty as an MP, is there an FM, AR or TC that specifically addresses MPs and if we are to stand at attention or parade rest while talking to an officer or NCO while under arms and on duty.
For officer safety, I believe the answer is no, my squad leader also agrees with this assessment. I've heard other NCOs use the reason that we do not stand at parade rest/at ease or attention is for officer safety while we've been down here as well. We have not been questioned about this where we are after giving the answer that we are not standing at attention/parade rest because of officer safety and weapons retention. I have yet to have any higher ranks upset because of this, but wanted to find what written doctrine there is on this if any.
I have always been taught to salute, but not stand at attention or parade rest while on duty if we are under arms on duty as MPs, but after training today we decided to look into this a bit more and check for actual written doctrine/FMs that give clarity if there is anything specific to MPs on duty for this. Keeping in mind I did not see anything in either the MP leader's handbook or the MP handbook addressing this. It may be possible I was looking using the wrong search words.
I am all well aware I need to salute an officer as per customs and courtesies. Yes on occasion the salute may be delayed as we deal with an immediate situation that makes it impractical/unsafe. The question I've been looking at is while on duty as an MP, is there an FM, AR or TC that specifically addresses MPs and if we are to stand at attention or parade rest while talking to an officer or NCO while under arms and on duty.
For officer safety, I believe the answer is no, my squad leader also agrees with this assessment. I've heard other NCOs use the reason that we do not stand at parade rest/at ease or attention is for officer safety while we've been down here as well. We have not been questioned about this where we are after giving the answer that we are not standing at attention/parade rest because of officer safety and weapons retention. I have yet to have any higher ranks upset because of this, but wanted to find what written doctrine there is on this if any.
I have always been taught to salute, but not stand at attention or parade rest while on duty if we are under arms on duty as MPs, but after training today we decided to look into this a bit more and check for actual written doctrine/FMs that give clarity if there is anything specific to MPs on duty for this. Keeping in mind I did not see anything in either the MP leader's handbook or the MP handbook addressing this. It may be possible I was looking using the wrong search words.
Posted in these groups: 
31B: Military Police
Customs and Courtesies
31B: Military Police Customs and Courtesies
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 18
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You salute the officer after handing him his ticket at the end of the traffic stop.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I have seen the argument made that after we hand the officer his ticket, we don’t salute him because it would be showing other people around that ther is an officer who isn’t upholding the standards and that would bring discredit on the officer corps.
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In the Customs and Courtesy pub it mentions that a Soldier is required to render a hand salute blah blah blah unless under arms or when not practical i.e. arms full of equip, etc etc. You're looking in the wrong place with the STP 21-24-SMCT, TC 7-21.13, Military Police Leader's Handbook FM 3-19.4 and Soldier's Manual MOS 31B STP 19-31B1-SM, etc. Check the Customs and Courtesies manual.
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All of my sources report that this is normal Provost Marshal guidance (a.k.a. common sense officer safety) versus regulation.
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SGT (Join to see)
Thank you for the response 1SG. I've been finding similar guidance with checking around here. While we don't have any written SOPs and I don't know of any guidance put forward on this from our chain of command, I am aware my direct leadership is generally in agreement on us not standing at parade rest or attention as situation dictates.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - There is a NCOER bullet with you name on it....Developed, wrote and Staffed an Installation level SOP used by the PMO
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Under arms, MP authority > rank because of safety. Just because someone is a SGM or COL doesn't make them any less likely to get stupid when faced with detainment.
That being said, don't get belligerent with anyone that outranks you. If they start demanding the customs and courtesies, get your on duty chain on scene and involved.
Those are the things I was taught.
That being said, don't get belligerent with anyone that outranks you. If they start demanding the customs and courtesies, get your on duty chain on scene and involved.
Those are the things I was taught.
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That way I was taught too. I never stood a parade rest in front of an NCO unless they were my own and under guard themselves. I went to attention to salute an officer after a traffic stop or at the gates.
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As I was made to understand. As on duty MPs we had the authority of the post commander, and as he/she was the ranking officer of the installation by extension we could deviate from this particular custom
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Your duty requirements dictate what position you are required to be in while on duty. Don’t try the outhouse lawyer routene to get out of performing your duties.
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SGT (Join to see)
SFC, I agree. My intent is not to 'outhouse lawyer' getting out of us doing our duties correctly, I want to make sure we're doing what's right even if others in the area may accept what's not. As there isn't a TM/FM beyond customs and courtesies for MPs on duty to back us up if we ran into issues, we continued as we were and went with officer safety and discretion as to if it was appropriate based on our location on GITMO. Keeping in mind our location and how high profile it is we did not want to make any mistakes. Avoiding being 'That Guy' as well as doing our job safely is a top priority.
The reason we were looking for a TM/FM etc for it is because it was not in SOP, which means SOP needs created for the location or in house guidance/SOP if no TC/FM to base it off of specific to our location.
The reason the question came up was due to an NCO using 'On duty, under arms, don't need to' as logic not to render proper courtesies as far as parade rest attention etc. They still properly used rank as expected and the answer was accepted without any question, however, we wanted to see if there was some official guidance to base an SOP off of if the need came up (it did not).
The way people act as far as respect to rank has changed, although regulations haven't since I first joined almost 20yrs ago. As a reservist, I was taught to salute an officer out of respect and use rank even when I was in civilians if they were in uniform. I still do that out of habit and at times it gets me funny looks from my current unit and others. I've never been sure if that was something that fell out of favor over time or if that was a part of 'unit culture' like dropping with a soldier if you dropped them, or if it came from having 'old school' leadership.
The reason we were looking for a TM/FM etc for it is because it was not in SOP, which means SOP needs created for the location or in house guidance/SOP if no TC/FM to base it off of specific to our location.
The reason the question came up was due to an NCO using 'On duty, under arms, don't need to' as logic not to render proper courtesies as far as parade rest attention etc. They still properly used rank as expected and the answer was accepted without any question, however, we wanted to see if there was some official guidance to base an SOP off of if the need came up (it did not).
The way people act as far as respect to rank has changed, although regulations haven't since I first joined almost 20yrs ago. As a reservist, I was taught to salute an officer out of respect and use rank even when I was in civilians if they were in uniform. I still do that out of habit and at times it gets me funny looks from my current unit and others. I've never been sure if that was something that fell out of favor over time or if that was a part of 'unit culture' like dropping with a soldier if you dropped them, or if it came from having 'old school' leadership.
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Under arms only allows you to wear head gear while inside. At no point does under arms mean that you forgo military customs and courtesy and absolute military discipline. If you need an AR or any other form of rule, doctrine, ALARAC to tell you that; you need to check yourself. As an MP you should be the absolute most disciplined Soldier standing. You police soldiers. Lock that body smartly and CM.
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SGT (Join to see)
The reason we're looking for the AR/FM is because we've seen other MPs using 'under arms, so we don't stand at parade rest' logic (with no imminent threat in the area, and not doing a road stop/other). We wanted to verify if there was publication to refer to on this, or if it was something to do with SOP for the area etc, when I couldn't find anything under regulations or local SOP I posted here to check what resource(s) we may have missed. This is us checking ourselves to make very sure we're operating to standard, without disrespecting anyone, while maintaining a safe environment as there is no existing SOP here and I could not find anything in the manuals that addresses this.
I've seen this trained both as lock it up right off when outside of a stop and use MP stance taught in school house at all times. I wanted to check if this was something that is individual unit/area SOP driven or if there was more to it - and I came up with nothing in the manuals so asked here to see what resources I missed. The one resource that was mentioned here that I missed mentioning was the customs and courtesies manual which like the rest did not address this specific type of situation.
I've always been trained safety, then customs and courtesies. I know very well I am to salute and render proper courtesies, however, the question about standing at parade rest vs the MP stance we are also trained to use came up. When I found nothing using what I know of FMs I decided to ask here.
I wanted to make very sure we were not missing anything given what we saw in this area, and that we're training and acting correctly before anyone gets themselves in trouble.
I am checking myself, it's why I posted here after going through manuals and local SOPs.
It looks like the rule of 'situation dictates' applies to my question, which is something I half expected. Customs and courtesies as able based on the situation we're in with the ranking individual.
I've seen this trained both as lock it up right off when outside of a stop and use MP stance taught in school house at all times. I wanted to check if this was something that is individual unit/area SOP driven or if there was more to it - and I came up with nothing in the manuals so asked here to see what resources I missed. The one resource that was mentioned here that I missed mentioning was the customs and courtesies manual which like the rest did not address this specific type of situation.
I've always been trained safety, then customs and courtesies. I know very well I am to salute and render proper courtesies, however, the question about standing at parade rest vs the MP stance we are also trained to use came up. When I found nothing using what I know of FMs I decided to ask here.
I wanted to make very sure we were not missing anything given what we saw in this area, and that we're training and acting correctly before anyone gets themselves in trouble.
I am checking myself, it's why I posted here after going through manuals and local SOPs.
It looks like the rule of 'situation dictates' applies to my question, which is something I half expected. Customs and courtesies as able based on the situation we're in with the ranking individual.
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1SG (Join to see)
1SG Martin - Says the guy out in the field after rucking several miles, sweating and yes, no head gear and glasses. Field environment. So yes I still stand by my statement. Good day
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I've looked through every manual I have...and I'm at a schoolhouse teaching MP's....LOL! Can't find a thing. It's more than likely a base SOP...And in your case, a damn good one.
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SSG (Join to see)
its there I taught it.. its in the Officer safety class. its also in the Traffic stop class... I wrote it.. talk to SSG French
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SSG (Join to see)
Officer Safety class? Must be an old POI. It’s not in ours. Maybe it’s because it’s just one of those things that we do and it was rolled into Traffic Stops. I know it’s not in the Fontrol Access class in which we teach them gate duty.
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