Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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I never considered these to be anything more than "stories" or as we in the Navy call them, "Sea Stories", Most E-8' & E-9's display much better discretion than than the "stories" relate.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
I would opine that more than 99% of SNCO's in the Navy are professionals. (Maybe more; like 99.9%). What we're talking about, here, are aberrations. I would suspect that if any SNCO did anything like that, there would be many other SNCO's who would cringe, and maybe more than a few who would act.
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One, yes I've heard the stories, but never about a CSM I know or spoke to.
Two, I've never seen a CSM chew out an LT in public, closed doors with a select few in the room, yes but even that is a rare thing.
So has it happened? I'm sure, and it would have been wrong.
Did some LT order the CSM to the position of attention? I'm sure it happened ....Id guess either the CSM laughed and walked away (not what I would do) or went to POA and took the response from the LT,,,, realizing they were in the wrong to have created the situation to start with and salvaging that with doing the "right" thing in front of others was a best of a shitty situation. Once the LT had his say, Id quietly provide that I was going to go see the BN CDR, and he might want to come along
Two, I've never seen a CSM chew out an LT in public, closed doors with a select few in the room, yes but even that is a rare thing.
So has it happened? I'm sure, and it would have been wrong.
Did some LT order the CSM to the position of attention? I'm sure it happened ....Id guess either the CSM laughed and walked away (not what I would do) or went to POA and took the response from the LT,,,, realizing they were in the wrong to have created the situation to start with and salvaging that with doing the "right" thing in front of others was a best of a shitty situation. Once the LT had his say, Id quietly provide that I was going to go see the BN CDR, and he might want to come along
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SFC Casey O'Mally
I agree. I think you have detailed pretty much the perfect response if it does escalate to that point.
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I spent my career living out three general principles, well at least I tried my best to uphold them -
1. Praise in public, correct in private
2. You can delegate some of your authority to carry out the mission, you cannot share your responsibility for the mission.
3. A good leader removes a stone from their soldiers rucksack, doesn't add one.
One final thought is that all folks in senior leadership, regardless of branch, civilian or military, RLO, WO or NCO, need to keep egos in check.
1. Praise in public, correct in private
2. You can delegate some of your authority to carry out the mission, you cannot share your responsibility for the mission.
3. A good leader removes a stone from their soldiers rucksack, doesn't add one.
One final thought is that all folks in senior leadership, regardless of branch, civilian or military, RLO, WO or NCO, need to keep egos in check.
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As a senior NCO (who also worked in a training environment) I had the occasion to call many a junior officer "aside" to discuss what I felt was a bad call. I made every attempt to keep such occasions as private as possible for a couple of reasons. 1) Out of courtesy and respect for the individual's rank. 2) I believed that criticism of someone's behavior/comments should be done in privacy (unless it is a training situation such as being an instructor when all will benefit from the remedial actions). I don't care the rank of the individual, if you feel they need a "word" respect the person and you won't go too far astray.
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I think this something that happens in theory. When I was an LT I have been corrected by my CSM but it was very respectful. I couldn't imagine a LT trying to lock up a NCO.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir,
Thankfully, this is something that happens rarely. But it does happen, and it is almost never pretty. In my opinion, when it does happen, both that LT and CSM are wrong for allowing it to get to that point. And if it happens in public, both are dead wrong.
Thankfully, this is something that happens rarely. But it does happen, and it is almost never pretty. In my opinion, when it does happen, both that LT and CSM are wrong for allowing it to get to that point. And if it happens in public, both are dead wrong.
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1LT William Clardy
I can do more than imagine a lieutenant locking up a senior NCO, CPT (Join to see).
But the only witnesses were the LT and the NCO, and the LT did not raise his voice any more than necessary to remind the NCO of proper military courtesy when addressing an officer (even a junior-ish one).
I won't claim that the NCO was exactly happy about the encounter, but there was no evidence of him holding a grudge either.
But the only witnesses were the LT and the NCO, and the LT did not raise his voice any more than necessary to remind the NCO of proper military courtesy when addressing an officer (even a junior-ish one).
I won't claim that the NCO was exactly happy about the encounter, but there was no evidence of him holding a grudge either.
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I think it's a scenario all young LT's would like to happen, but really doesn't happen in the wild.
I have pushed back on a CSM when I was an LT, but that was over the phone between us, but I was 46 at the time so it was one old man to another.
*****
IG complaint came his way regarding someone in my company. Turns out the source of the complaint was a result of the Battalion staff not acting on my action I sent up to them twice, under two different BC's and staff of the CSM. So any IG complaint coming my way was only going to land right back in his lap after I forwarded IG the e-mails and date signed CAC forms.
So I had to stop his rant before he got too far along.
*****
I think generally, CSM's are well versed in the ways to pounce on a Jr officer. Usually their LTC/COL is in in ear shot.
I remember a CSM holding a brief and a few LTC's were sitting WAY in the back. CSM asked them professionally to come forward, and they balked and gave him lip. The CSM's COL stepped on stage and they complied.
I have pushed back on a CSM when I was an LT, but that was over the phone between us, but I was 46 at the time so it was one old man to another.
*****
IG complaint came his way regarding someone in my company. Turns out the source of the complaint was a result of the Battalion staff not acting on my action I sent up to them twice, under two different BC's and staff of the CSM. So any IG complaint coming my way was only going to land right back in his lap after I forwarded IG the e-mails and date signed CAC forms.
So I had to stop his rant before he got too far along.
*****
I think generally, CSM's are well versed in the ways to pounce on a Jr officer. Usually their LTC/COL is in in ear shot.
I remember a CSM holding a brief and a few LTC's were sitting WAY in the back. CSM asked them professionally to come forward, and they balked and gave him lip. The CSM's COL stepped on stage and they complied.
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Not as a LT, but I had an issue with a SGM who was acting as our CSM when we were deployed. In fact I had 2 separate run-in's with him. He felt that his position gave him the authority to treat anyone however he wanted, wherever he wanted. I came into my office as the S4 and found him tearing apart my NCOIC in front of my soldiers and the entire S1 shop that I shared an office with. I stopped it and asked what was going on at which point he laid in to me. I stopped him again and we went outside and we had a "discussion" where I informed him that he was not to talk to anyone like that, especially in front of soldiers, and then invited him to accompany me to the BN CDR's office. We eventually PCS'd him out of theater he was so bad.
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LTC Christopher Hills
Unfortunately, achieving rank doesn’t always come with the good leadership skills necessary for that rank. I have seen that among both officers and NCO’s… and sometimes, you just need to boot them out the door. I have as well.
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One of my troops and I walked by a 2LT from another Battery, as we passed him, we saluted and gave the greeting, the unit motto. The LT just kept walking by with out the return. My 1SG, saw this and ran down to the LT and gave him a salute with the greeting, then said "excuse me sir". And he discussed passing by 2 of his soldiers who showed respect and saluted him but he did not show the courtesy back by returning the salute. He maintained his military bearing as he explained why it was wrong and informed him he owed us a salute. May I say, we could barely hear him. The LT quickly turned around and provided us a salute and apologized. Would the LT be left "feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated," probably, but he learned a lesson of how he did not return respect.
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LTC Christopher Hills
I see that as an NCO doing the right thing (as opposed to the original post where the CSM was doing the wrong thing). One also would hope that any company grade officer would be attentive if a senior NCO stopped to talk with them… out of sheer respect for the position if nothing else. And it sounds like that is how it played out with the 2LT in your battery.
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It all depends on the context of the specific situation. Sometimes it is the Lt who oversteps and overreaches. Sometimes its the Sgt Maj who goes too far and refuses to backdown. I was in for 11 1/2 years and saw variations where either party or both were at fault. It's a delicate dance to make that relationship function correctly.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
I understand what you are saying. In my opinion, if it gets to the point where the LT feels the need to lock up the CSM, it is almost always a case of BOTH being in the wrong.
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
SFC Casey O'Mally - I've seen a Lt or Boot Capt lead with that before. Or say "I'm an O and you have to do what I say". In those cases I would fault the officer. But like I said, it depends on the context. It's not something you can use a blanket assumption on. Sometimes it could be either or both.
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first of all, it needs to be done in private. second of all, nobody needs to get "locked up" so to speak. they need to talk about it and if that doesn't work, go to the BC.
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