Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
35.2K
701
208
101
101
0
Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
0
0
0
I have observed first hand in the Army and in the Air Force there are some really STRAC CSMs and CSMs both who I have been honored and benefited to serve with.
Then there are just E9s.
Then there are just E9s.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I think the CSM is wrong!! He should have called the LT aside, and discussed the matter, but not in front of the LT's troops.
It reminds me of a MAC NCO driving into my reinforced position, with no notice. I was on a M-60s and should have put a few rounds in front of the jeep. I decided it looked like an Army jeep and did not fire. When he got inside the defense perimeter, he was completely in subordinate. I should have put him under arrest and called SeaHorse 6, in Vinh Long, S Vietnam. Why do NCO's think they are little GODs??
It reminds me of a MAC NCO driving into my reinforced position, with no notice. I was on a M-60s and should have put a few rounds in front of the jeep. I decided it looked like an Army jeep and did not fire. When he got inside the defense perimeter, he was completely in subordinate. I should have put him under arrest and called SeaHorse 6, in Vinh Long, S Vietnam. Why do NCO's think they are little GODs??
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I saw it first hand in Iraq. A 1LT made a decision to go into an area he was told not to go into. The 1LT decided to go anyway. They were ambushed and 4 soldiers and a translator were killed. When he returned, a CSM grabbed him by the collar pinned him against a wall and chewed him out. The CSM told him he disobeyed orders by going into that order and the CSM dismissed him. The Commander of the BN followed suit and sent the 1LT to be demoted and arrested until they could get paperwork to have him discharged. Unknown if this 1LT was sent to Leavenworth or just kicked out of the Army with a Bad Conduct Discharge.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I never saw anything like that happen. Jr. Officers sometimes need to be set straight, in a tactful manner of course. They don't have much experience and their mentor probably has a couple of years over them. Their rank power goes to their heads some times. A CSM has been around the block several times when the lieutenants are just taking baby steps.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
While on deployment to Iraq in 2005, I observed a SFC who was the FOB mayor publicly chew out a young 1LT for not carrying his weapon in the low ready on the FOB, as was the FOB rule. It was completely wrong of the SFC to do this. The poor LT just stood there not knowing what to do. It reminded me of a drill Sgt and a new soldier in basic training. It was so loud and disrespectful that a crowd gathered. As if that was not enough, the SFC " ordered " the LT to the FOB office and then proceeded to march him to the office. WAY out of line of the SFC. poor leadership on SFC's part. FYI, I was not the LT,
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
During an NCOPD our CSM politely asked an onlooking CPT to leave the conference room. Captain immediately became defensive, utilizing his rank and athority with a whiff of a-hole superiority. CSM left and returned with the BN Commander who called the CPT from the room. No leader should belitte another Infront of soldiers. I'm not gunna beat a dead horse. I just wanted to share my experience.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Although there can be conflicts between LTs and NCOs, it is routinely short-lived. The reason for this is power dynamics not rank. If an LT has any common sense or a good NCO battle buddy, then the conflict is kept private and managed. Because one role of an NCO is to train and mentor their battle buddy officer, at every level. PSGs/SFCs guide 1LTs, 1SGs guide Captains, CSM guide everyone. So, if an LT feels disrespected or perceives a personal slight by a CSM, then they might do something stupid, like believe rank is the controlling variable, it isn't. Attempting to 'lock-up' a CSM won't succeed to do anything except escalate conflict. Because the LT's Rater or Senior Rater will respond on behalf of the CSM.
Likewise, if a CSM chews out an LT in public, this causes problems for all involved. Because we praise in public and admonish in private. So, whatever issue the CSM has, the routine process is to mentor the LT in private, as well as involve the unit NCOs to guide the LT. Again, that is one of the roles of all NCOs. Failing that, the CSM is responsible for advising the Commander and the good order and discipline, morale and development of the unit, including officers. As such, the CSM will inform the Commander on a need to develop the LT. And the conversation is much different if the LT attempts to pull rank on the CSM. Because we respect the rank, not the person. Most CSMs will respect the rank but if the LT proceeds to behave like an ass, it rarely turns out well for the LT.
Good officers seek out the CSM to make an introduction, to open and maintain a line of communication and ensure that the LT's development is not thwarted by miscommunication. Poor officers believe rank matters when it comes to power.
Likewise, if a CSM chews out an LT in public, this causes problems for all involved. Because we praise in public and admonish in private. So, whatever issue the CSM has, the routine process is to mentor the LT in private, as well as involve the unit NCOs to guide the LT. Again, that is one of the roles of all NCOs. Failing that, the CSM is responsible for advising the Commander and the good order and discipline, morale and development of the unit, including officers. As such, the CSM will inform the Commander on a need to develop the LT. And the conversation is much different if the LT attempts to pull rank on the CSM. Because we respect the rank, not the person. Most CSMs will respect the rank but if the LT proceeds to behave like an ass, it rarely turns out well for the LT.
Good officers seek out the CSM to make an introduction, to open and maintain a line of communication and ensure that the LT's development is not thwarted by miscommunication. Poor officers believe rank matters when it comes to power.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Never ever saw a breach of disciple like that. Though had heard a few close things happened in the field under fire:) And that would not be explainable to the state-side desk jockeys peddling the Military Code or civilians. Respect, obey the rank, disciple, alien concepts:) In the field the Sargents run the troops and the officers are suppose to give competent orders. Mitigating circumstances judged by military courts rarely sided with breaking ranks, unless gross incompetence can be shown that kills our troops that borders on criminal negligence. For whatever it's worth most lt are smart enough to take advice.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
That CSM is WAY out of bounds. That LT might be young and lacking, but he is STILL an OFFICER and the CSM is not. I don't care how much "experience" and "years" that CSM has. You respect the rank and the uniform. Teaching and suggestion things to the LT, is one thing. Trying to chew out an officer, is grounds for a court martial.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Any CSM worth his/her's salt will NEVER do this. As stated by others, the CSM will talk to the young officer quietly off to the side- off line as they might say. I did have a CSM yell at me once- I then politely replied with the old rule of punish in private, praise in public. He was not pleased but conceded that I was right.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google