Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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While in Desert Storm we were setting up Camp Doha for the units to come in and relieve us DONT know what happened but are 1Sgt and Co XO were literally at each other’s throat it was broken up before it got bad but it was infront of a bunch of soldiers. Don’t know anything after that.
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Yes, the CSM is definitely wrong. Take the LT aside and provide him or her with the reason for the "come to Jesus" counseling. Shake hands and do not dwell on the situation. If this recurs, then you may want to dig out a counseling statement and document the hell out of it. I've seen a former sergeant rip another former sergeant a new one in front of a group of folks. I'd never work for that sorry S.O.B (sweet old buddy) again!!!
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It can get worse. Imagine the CO wants a measure of the new LT. He orders his CSM to find some trivial infraction, and ream the LT a new one for it. The CO wants to see what happens. This occurs to me, as something a CO could do. Is this something that might actually happen?
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SFC Casey O'Mally
That seems a bit underhanded and duplicitous to me, but then again, I have never been a CO. And I think it *would* give the CO a great deal of information about the LT in one small snapshot.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Army life, as I understand it, is anything but gentile or sometimes even fair. Commanders face difficult decisions. Getting a quick small snapshot might be what is required. Not all the time, maybe even not often. But Commanders sometimes need this information. Now.
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LTC Christopher Hills
No CO with any leadership ability would ever do that. I’ve known a few officers that might do that, but shame on them and any CSM that would play the game. I can’t (and never did) abide by bad leadership in either the NCO or leadership channels. If you work for me, I’m going to demand the most from you. If I work for you, I am going to do whatever it takes to make you successful. But I set high expectations for those who worked for me, my peers and those above me. If you lead, I’m there to back you at whatever level. If you are a chicken shit rank chasing game player who screws with troops, expect that I will relieve you… regardless of whether you work for me or I work for you are we are peers.
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Who comes up with this crap. Could've...would've...should've. Reading these stupid-ass BS stories and gotcha crap is so unprofessional and unbecoming, it make the whole site irrelevant.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Chief,
I have this or similar stories many times in NCO circles. I have myself seen it a couple times (but only a couple over 20 years).
It was thrown out there for discussion of the right way and wrong way to handle this type of situation - which many have done. There is no "gotcha" involved.
I have this or similar stories many times in NCO circles. I have myself seen it a couple times (but only a couple over 20 years).
It was thrown out there for discussion of the right way and wrong way to handle this type of situation - which many have done. There is no "gotcha" involved.
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No matter what the rank shows, a CSM has a lot more power that some butter bar. He may be an officer, but if he thinks the CSM is just an normal enlisted man, he is dad wrong. A butter bar is still wet behind the ears and has a lot to learn before he can become a real leader. It is always a good idea to listen to the "advice' of a senior enlisted. IMHO
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CWO3 William Hanrahan
Tell that to the Lt that was once a Gunny. I've worked with fine Lt's. Show me a jacked-up Lt, and I'll show you plenty of jacked-up NCOs and SNCOs.
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SGT Jeff Everhart
No CSM should ever be yelling or belittling a junior officer in front of anyone. If I were a junior officer and a CSM treated me like that in such a manner, there would be hell to pay.
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Piss poor behavior from the E-9. As senior NCOs, particularly first sergeants and CSM/CCMs, we need to help these young officers grow. Publicly belittling is the opposite of that. As a first sergeant I chewed on many a young officer, even my commander, but only I public and only in the e spirit of making them better officers.
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While I was in I never saw a CSM chew out an LT but I have seen him pull the LT out and explain to him where he went wrong. The LT was smart enough to understand that he was wrong. But I retired in 1990 maybe we were a different breed.
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Never in from of the troops or public. Always one on one. That goes or an NCO or officers subordinates as well. Except would be to prevent immediate physical danger. I can't Se it any other way
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