Posted on Apr 29, 2020
Is it grounds for an EO complaint if an NCO questions my faith and tells me I need to shave my beard?
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I just got to my new duty station about 1 month ago, I haven’t really met a lot of people from my unit do to covid-19 but today I met my platoon sgt for the second time , the first time we met I was in civilians over the weekend and he decided to stop by the barracks to check up on me, so today we were called down to work for 100% accountability because someone got a DUI out of the range they told us to stay in, after the formation my platoon sgt walked up to me and started yelling at me telling me I need to shave my beard off. I told him that I was Muslim and I have a Memo from the brigade Chaplin from my old duty station that I can have it and I explained to him that it wasn’t longer than 2 inches, I tried giving him the memo and he said he didn’t want to see it and he started laughing and shaking his head at me and started questioning me as if I was lying he asked “how long have you been Muslim?” And I told him next month will make a year since I converted to Islam after the 3rd question I told him I’m not answering no more questions and walked away from him and he got upset and said “ you will not have a beard and wear the same uniform as me” as I was walking off . So about 2 hours later I got a text from the person that is my team leader that the platoon sgt wants me to write an 1 page essay about disrespecting an NCO and a copy of my memo, I replied with how did I disrespect him? And my team leader replied with “by walking away from NCO while he was talking to you” am I in the wrong and what do I do about it?
EO
Platoon Sergeant
Religion
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 80
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You are wrong. Unless he was doing something illegal or harming you, you stand at parade rest and listen. When he is done ranting, you take your issue to the COC. If he is wrong he will be corrected, just as you will be.
His ignorance to your faith is at the core of the problem. Him asking you questions is his right as your leader. Get an appointment for your current chaplain, and be prepared for some sort of discipline or corrective action. If he called you back and you kept walking you are subject to UCMJ.
Be respectful, seek guidance of your chaplain, in the meantime, should he ask to speak to you do the right thing, listen, answer and you may be surprised. In any case do not walk away.
His ignorance to your faith is at the core of the problem. Him asking you questions is his right as your leader. Get an appointment for your current chaplain, and be prepared for some sort of discipline or corrective action. If he called you back and you kept walking you are subject to UCMJ.
Be respectful, seek guidance of your chaplain, in the meantime, should he ask to speak to you do the right thing, listen, answer and you may be surprised. In any case do not walk away.
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SSG David Kaelin
Marrying girls of that age was common to almost every civilization up until around the 1800s.
Apparently, the whole world were pedophiles prior to about 1960 or so.
Judging Mohammad over that marriage is no different than judging Abraham Lincoln on his views of Africans based upon modern day cultural sensibilities.
It's really simple. You can read history books and such. You'll become educated and you may even lose the hatred that haunts your soul.
Afterall, God is ageless. Millions of years old. He fathered a child with a 12 year old named Mary.
Moses married a girl of similar age when he was much older.
Apparently, the whole world were pedophiles prior to about 1960 or so.
Judging Mohammad over that marriage is no different than judging Abraham Lincoln on his views of Africans based upon modern day cultural sensibilities.
It's really simple. You can read history books and such. You'll become educated and you may even lose the hatred that haunts your soul.
Afterall, God is ageless. Millions of years old. He fathered a child with a 12 year old named Mary.
Moses married a girl of similar age when he was much older.
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SSG David Kaelin
It's = It is
Its = possessive
Learn the language if you are going to question the intelligence of others, Sarge.
Its = possessive
Learn the language if you are going to question the intelligence of others, Sarge.
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SSG David Kaelin
For those who wish to be truly informed and not simply prejudiced nitwits, here is a list of men who married very young women.
The list includes men like the King of Wessex who was in his 60s and married a 12 year old at about the same time as Mohammad (50s) married Aisha (13).
If we are to hold this against one, we should be honest enough with ourselves to hold it against the other. Else, we are hypocrites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
The list includes men like the King of Wessex who was in his 60s and married a 12 year old at about the same time as Mohammad (50s) married Aisha (13).
If we are to hold this against one, we should be honest enough with ourselves to hold it against the other. Else, we are hypocrites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
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Thats definently an EO situation. However, a memo from your old brigade chaplain will not allow you to keep your beard. Your current bde commander is the only one that can authorize a religious exemption.
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SPC (Join to see)
Sgt Thomas Proctor This is why the Chaplain does the interview and recommends the religious exemption. They are qualified and their opinion on religious doctrine and necessity holds weight. Yours does not. You should work on your approach to these topics. Do you know anything about Sikhism?
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Sgt Thomas Proctor
SPC (Join to see) - Yes I know about Sikhism, My Cardiologist is a Sikh and I have worked on jobs with Sikhs. I, along with others is saying the military should have one standard. If people cannot meet that standard then don't enlist. If Chaplains have that much authority today, things have changed since I served in the military. Just my opinion, you have yours so that should end this discussion.
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SPC (Join to see)
Religious exemptions are recommended by the chaplain after he puts through his memo then it goes for approval at the BDE CDR level afterwards if approval is granted the soldier will obtain a permanent profile which as the name states does not expire but like all profiles must be kept on the soldier at all times
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CSM John Mead
Going the EO route only escalates any problems between the soldier and his chain of command. The PSG handled it wrong and should have investigated. However, the soldier's attitude would have nullified any leverage that he might have had. Disrespect is that, plain and simple. I'd fire him up, recommend some punishment and then lead him in the direction to get his exemption approved. Personally, I'm against beards for any reason, but that's not my call.
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Perspective from an old AF guy....
I'm not knowledgeable of all things Army but I believe your current Commander is the only one who can approve waivers for such things. I know the rules and policies are changing but don't know the specifics. Secondly, it's NEVER a good idea to "just walk off" when being addressed by a higher ranking member. It usually doesn't end well for you no matter the circumstances. Speaking as a SNCO myself, I'd have been more than a bit irritated had you done that when I was speaking. I don't necessarily approve of how your PSG handled the situation either but that doesn't excuse your poor behavior. I'd suggest going through the Chain and attempting to set up a conversation with your PSG to clear the air. Might save you some grief later on down the road. Also, use your Chain to speak with your Commander to see if an updated waiver can/should be granted.
I'm not knowledgeable of all things Army but I believe your current Commander is the only one who can approve waivers for such things. I know the rules and policies are changing but don't know the specifics. Secondly, it's NEVER a good idea to "just walk off" when being addressed by a higher ranking member. It usually doesn't end well for you no matter the circumstances. Speaking as a SNCO myself, I'd have been more than a bit irritated had you done that when I was speaking. I don't necessarily approve of how your PSG handled the situation either but that doesn't excuse your poor behavior. I'd suggest going through the Chain and attempting to set up a conversation with your PSG to clear the air. Might save you some grief later on down the road. Also, use your Chain to speak with your Commander to see if an updated waiver can/should be granted.
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SPC Maurice Tillman
MSgt, I wish that the Army was so humane as the Air Force. The fact that the NCO had the balls to question another man's faith, in spite of a certified chaplain's approval shows what's wrong with the picture. Trops are required to follow "lawful" orders, which this wasn't. It's a clear EO violation. It is not right to walk away from an NCO but there is no obligation to allow them to break rules either. The military community is called "community", deliberately. That means we're all of the same class, regardless of rank. I sense that the NCO needs a bit of retraining or is probably a very young person that's immaturely throwing around their weight. Just my assessment...
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TSgt James Sutton
SPC Maurice Tillman - I think the part you are missing is the NCO telling him not to leave. That is a lawful order that the troop deliberately violated. It isn't like he told him to shave his beard, that would have been an EO issue. An NCO testing his troop to find out if the guy is "gaming" the system would be a very appropriate thing to do. Otherwise, discipline goes down when one troop is gaming the system and everyone else sees it happen and nothing happens to the guy gaming everyone. I don't see any EO issues here, but then again i have been retired 10 years, things change and not always for the best. Finally, the NCO saying he didn't care about a waiver from a previous commander is legitimate, the previous waiver is invalid and the troop needed to be told he had to get another waiver. I'm sure the NCO was getting there, but the troop was too disrespectful to stay and listen to everything the NCO had to say.
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SFC David Pope, MBA
SPC Maurice Tillman - The Platoon Sgt has every right to ensure the soldier was in compliance. There is no EO situation here. I can write a letter and claim it is from a chaplain somewhere in the Army. The chaplain like a commander only has authority in the area they are assigned. The soldier walking away from a senior NCO is punishable under the UCMJ. Unlike civilian employers the military supervisor can question your religion.
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