Posted on May 23, 2019
Is it lawful to counsel someone for not filling out a leave form?
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I recently record a 4856/negative counseling for failure to obey order to fill out a leave form. Am I forced to take leave? I didn’t want to and did not and the command gave me a negative counseling for it .
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Posted 5 y ago
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Let's clarify a few things.
Is it legal? Refers to the legality of doing a thing. I promise you there are no laws anywhere written about counseling statements
Second, you can be counseled about literally anything, anywhere, at any time. A counseling statement is simply a record of a written discussion.
Third, a counseling statement is not a punitive action. It is not punishment, and even though it may be called a negative counseling, there is nothing that is actually negative about it. The counseling statement cannot hurt you. It is intended to show a pattern of behavior over time.
Finally, Commanders have a wide latitude and how they utilize UCMJ. UCMJ is not a strict regulation that forces Commanders punish soldiers, as soon as they receive a few negative complaints. The wide latitude allows Commanders to use their judgment and common sense in how and when discipline for punishment is applied. Now, imagine yourself as a commander and someone approach to you and requested that you support an Article 15 because the soldier did not take leave. It doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense.
So, in summary, you can be counseled for anything, and counseling statements do not equal UCMJ
Is it legal? Refers to the legality of doing a thing. I promise you there are no laws anywhere written about counseling statements
Second, you can be counseled about literally anything, anywhere, at any time. A counseling statement is simply a record of a written discussion.
Third, a counseling statement is not a punitive action. It is not punishment, and even though it may be called a negative counseling, there is nothing that is actually negative about it. The counseling statement cannot hurt you. It is intended to show a pattern of behavior over time.
Finally, Commanders have a wide latitude and how they utilize UCMJ. UCMJ is not a strict regulation that forces Commanders punish soldiers, as soon as they receive a few negative complaints. The wide latitude allows Commanders to use their judgment and common sense in how and when discipline for punishment is applied. Now, imagine yourself as a commander and someone approach to you and requested that you support an Article 15 because the soldier did not take leave. It doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense.
So, in summary, you can be counseled for anything, and counseling statements do not equal UCMJ
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SFC (Join to see)
PVT (Join to see) they don't have the authority force you to take leave. My point is, you were not punished. A counseling statement is not a punishment. Nothing bad happens to you when you receive a negative counseling statement. You are not flagged oh, you are not barred from re-enlistment, you are not negatively impacted in any way by receiving a 4856
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC (Join to see) - I would have to disagree that the Commander can't force you to take leave. Block leave for a unit is an example where I could direct everyone in the unit to take leave during a certain period and charge it against their leave. Most of the directives about leave pertains to insuring that a soldier doesn't lose any and general guidelines to reasons to schedule them. The when is determined by Commander's policy.
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SFC (Join to see)
CPT Lawrence Cable I'm not really an expert on leave, so I could very well be wrong in that case. That's why further down I suggested that the source for that answer would be IG who can identify the policy or regulation that allows a commander to direct leave or not.
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SSG Dave Johnston
PVT Daesean never specified the "Reason" for the DA 31...:
1. Travel out side of a Command Specified radis of: 50/75/100/ etc. miles.
2. 3 or 4 day Pass on a non-federal holiday.
3. A birth; yours or your close relative and your technically AWOL with out the Document
4. Leave in conjunction with TDY or PCS Move...
5. A funeral.
6. Held for questioning of an investigation into ?X?X?X?
7. Block leave.
So before he does anything at all, he should correct his/her initial post as to [{"WHY"}] he/she was asked to fill out the DA 31[Request and Authority for Leave] and then maybe we can correctly respond to your query; otherwise, he/she may be shooting themselves in the foot by following the well intentioned guidance of those who have so far responded to the post.
1. Travel out side of a Command Specified radis of: 50/75/100/ etc. miles.
2. 3 or 4 day Pass on a non-federal holiday.
3. A birth; yours or your close relative and your technically AWOL with out the Document
4. Leave in conjunction with TDY or PCS Move...
5. A funeral.
6. Held for questioning of an investigation into ?X?X?X?
7. Block leave.
So before he does anything at all, he should correct his/her initial post as to [{"WHY"}] he/she was asked to fill out the DA 31[Request and Authority for Leave] and then maybe we can correctly respond to your query; otherwise, he/she may be shooting themselves in the foot by following the well intentioned guidance of those who have so far responded to the post.
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There is no such thing as a "Negative counseling" PVT. You didn't give enough information of why you received this counseling and whether or not there was any corrective action.
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SSG Dave Johnston
My thoughts exactly, and nobody caught it except us two. Damn Privates not giving us the "Whole" story...#$%^&^%$#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@. Man I'm glad I'm retired.
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PVT Daesean:
You never specified the "Reason" for the DA 31...:
1. Travel out side of a Command Specified radis of: 50/75/100/ etc. miles.
2. 3 or 4 day Pass on a non-federal holiday.
3. A birth; yours or your close relative and your technically AWOL with out the Document
4. Leave in conjunction with TDY or PCS Move...
5. A funeral.
6. Held for questioning of an investigation into ?X?X?X?
7. Block leave.
So before you do anything at all, please correct your initial post as to [{"WHY"}] you were asked to fill out the DA 31[Request and Authority for Leave] and then maybe we can correctly respond to your query; otherwise, you may be shooting yourself in the foot by following the well intentioned guidance of those who have so far responded to your post.
You never specified the "Reason" for the DA 31...:
1. Travel out side of a Command Specified radis of: 50/75/100/ etc. miles.
2. 3 or 4 day Pass on a non-federal holiday.
3. A birth; yours or your close relative and your technically AWOL with out the Document
4. Leave in conjunction with TDY or PCS Move...
5. A funeral.
6. Held for questioning of an investigation into ?X?X?X?
7. Block leave.
So before you do anything at all, please correct your initial post as to [{"WHY"}] you were asked to fill out the DA 31[Request and Authority for Leave] and then maybe we can correctly respond to your query; otherwise, you may be shooting yourself in the foot by following the well intentioned guidance of those who have so far responded to your post.
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