Posted on Feb 22, 2018
Is it realistic to believe that a teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter, using an AR-15, armed with only a handgun?
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After the shooting in Florida many people began to say arm the teachers. But they over look that a police officer was there. As a Marine I understand how difficult it is to close on and take an active shooter even with the best training and equipment. During the Dallas shooting 11 police officers was injured and another 6 was killed. Out of all the return fire none actually hit the suspect. Infact the suspect was killed by a remote control robot carrying an explosive. The reason why the suspect wasn't killed by a well aimed handgun shot is because of what we call the fog of war. When the shooting starts panic and confusion set in and the way we deal with it in the military is continually to train for those situations week in and week out. But without a third of the training people are expecting teachers to be able to identify the location of the shooter, know the movement of other armed teachers, know the movement of the innocent students and staff, close on the shooter and fire a well aimed shot without putting any students in further danger. Is that realistic?
Active Shooter
New Politics
Children
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 489
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I'm not sure if the idea is for armed teacher to identify a shooter's location, close with him, and engage him. Rather, I think that it's more likely that, if the school goes into lockdown because of an active shooter and the shooter enters a classroom, and armed teacher might be able to shoot the shooter before harm can come to the students. In other words, it's more of a situation like an armed intruder entering your home rather than a tactical assault. Under those circumstances, yes, I think that a teacher with a decent handgun has a possibility of defending him or herself and the students against a shooter with an AR-15. The range is close enough for the pistol to be effective and the teacher is cornered and has nothing to lose by attempting to shoot the shooter.
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Sure. Nobody expects teachers (as opposed to cops) to "close on" and deal with an active shooter. The expectation of the teacher would be to hunker down, with students, and address the shooter only if the shooter made entry in to the space that teacher occupied. Doing so, the teacher would be a surprise to the shooter and get the drop on him or her. In close quarters, unless the bad guy was a trained/experienced CQB guy, the teacher with the handgun would not be disadvantaged.
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Think about the average firefight. It's mostly about sending led back the other way. The problem with school shootings (and other mass shootings) is they all happen in "gun free zones, which obviously the shooters ignore.) I would never say a teacher "has to" be armed. But I would certainly remove the gun free zones and give teachers the option to obtain, and use, a carry and conceal license.
Look at the teachers that died protecting their students. I would think most teachers would rather have the option of shooting back, even into the ceiling or wall, just to scare off active shooters instead of using their bodies as a shield.
Look at the teachers that died protecting their students. I would think most teachers would rather have the option of shooting back, even into the ceiling or wall, just to scare off active shooters instead of using their bodies as a shield.
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I am of the belief that guns in the hands of good guys at school would deter most from bringing guns to school. Part of the lure of shooting up a school is there is nobody to shoot back. Gun free zone you know.
Word on the street is the shooter in Florida used ten round mags in a Tavor not an AR15. My point being that his magazine changes had to happen quickly and precisely to maintain the rate of fire required to inflict such a high number of casualties in such a short time. If he was spot on and didn't fumble with the mag changes that would give the good guy 2-3 seconds to get off a shot and get back to cover. Considering most pistol shooting is done inside 25 yards, it is unlikely that your average school teacher could get close enough to get a shot off that would stop the shooter.
Word on the street is the shooter in Florida used ten round mags in a Tavor not an AR15. My point being that his magazine changes had to happen quickly and precisely to maintain the rate of fire required to inflict such a high number of casualties in such a short time. If he was spot on and didn't fumble with the mag changes that would give the good guy 2-3 seconds to get off a shot and get back to cover. Considering most pistol shooting is done inside 25 yards, it is unlikely that your average school teacher could get close enough to get a shot off that would stop the shooter.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
PV2 Robert Lind - Agreed. But most private citizens who choose to carry take the time to train themselves, and many of those are surprisingly good. I have competed with some of them and have seen it firsthand.
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PV2 Robert Lind
If you go to ranges and competition shooting events you will find people that can shoot. I work for a criminal justice agency that employs over 200 Officers. Some of them can shoot very well, team guys, and those that put in extra effort. Some have a tough time qualifying every year, but all may have to carry a gun as part of their daily duties in the community. We just saw where some California police officers shot 90 some rounds to stop one bad guy. 90 rounds, and these guys have gone through a 12 week academy, and fired over 3000 rounds of duty ammo during their training, know how to use cover to get closer to the bad guy. If the plan is to arm teachers, then they had better set a training standard, get them through some kind of academy, give them Peace Officer status, and have them qualify annually. If they don't I can see the possibility a lot of "friendly fire" type incidents, and one could bankrupt a school district. Maybe it would be better if us parents and grandparents took care of it. It would get us back into the schools where we should be anyway. I won't pretend to have all the answers, it's a complex problem that needs to be looked at carefully before jumping. It may start with the expectation that everyone does their job and sees it through. Had that happened in Florida, lives would have been saved.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
PV2 Robert Lind - I'm not opposed to having training requirements and periodic re-qualifications. The type of person I envision volunteering to be armed in a classroom would be happy to comply with any such requirements.
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CPT William Jones
Teachers armed are not to hunt and killing capture perp. Their job is to barricade and secure their students then defend the doors against all invaders.
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1 Round placed in the right place can bring down just about anything. If anything hits you at 2,500 ft per second your gonna drop. If you doubt this buy yourself a BB-gun or even better a pellet gun that has a travel rate of no less than 1000 ft per second and just for fun shoot yourself in the leg or shoulder with it. If you can withstand the first one keep doing it until you cant then double the effect. During basic training we were told strategic places to shoot at helicopters, tanks and other vehicles to disable them. Not to say how effective it may be but IF you stand the same chance by shooting at a person I will take that chance everyday of the week. A few weeks at a fire-arms range and I will put my money on a teacher who is in fear for his/her life and for the life of his/her students. HISTORY has a way of repeating itself. Once again in the not too distant future we will all be armed just like back in the early 1800's. The best deterrent is "peace through superior fire power." If it were my kids in there I would go after the "nut-job" with a spork if I have to......
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Three salient points here:
1 - We're not talking about just any teachers. We're talking about teachers with firearms experience, i.e. veterans, former police officers, etc -- and even then with special training.
2 - That police officer was actually a Broward County deputy -- and I use the term loosely, because that coward hid behind his car while the shooter rampaged and killed.
3 - It has happened before. In 1994, Dean Mellberg went on a rampage at the Fairchild AFB Hospital, killing 5 and wounding 22 others. He was stopped by an Air Police officer on bicycle patrol at 80 yards with an M92 pistol. Mellberg was carrying a MAK-90.
Conclusion: If properly trained and of suitable character, one person armed with a pistol can indeed stop an active shooter with a semi-automatic rifle AR-15 or otherwise. Throw two or three into a school and don't tell anybody who they are and you won't get very many active shooters either.
And what about those three guys on the train in France -- unarmed they took down a guy with an AK. You don't necessarily need a gun but you DO need balls!
1 - We're not talking about just any teachers. We're talking about teachers with firearms experience, i.e. veterans, former police officers, etc -- and even then with special training.
2 - That police officer was actually a Broward County deputy -- and I use the term loosely, because that coward hid behind his car while the shooter rampaged and killed.
3 - It has happened before. In 1994, Dean Mellberg went on a rampage at the Fairchild AFB Hospital, killing 5 and wounding 22 others. He was stopped by an Air Police officer on bicycle patrol at 80 yards with an M92 pistol. Mellberg was carrying a MAK-90.
Conclusion: If properly trained and of suitable character, one person armed with a pistol can indeed stop an active shooter with a semi-automatic rifle AR-15 or otherwise. Throw two or three into a school and don't tell anybody who they are and you won't get very many active shooters either.
And what about those three guys on the train in France -- unarmed they took down a guy with an AK. You don't necessarily need a gun but you DO need balls!
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The reason these sicko's attack schools is they can do there bidding with out resistance. If you have several armed teachers staff one shooter can not fend them all off.
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Suspended Profile
Then why wouldn't a non-lethal flash bang accomplish the same thing w/o added risks?
Warmest Regards, Sandy :)
Warmest Regards, Sandy :)
SFC Robert Walton
because a flash bang is going to just cause more excitement and fear in children and chances are flash bang being deployed correctly may get the one person deploying it killed. Not to mention the hearing damage and glass breakage lights breaking excessive damage would be costly at best. IMO
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In an earlier post i talked about the fact that the teachers in our school district are armed and the fact is publicized. Fortunately those are not the only measures in place to deal with armed intruders. Outside access to each campus is monitored from a central point and entry is by remote lock release for a limited number of entrances only. Playgrounds and outside activity areas are fenced and within the campus areas. Internally, building access within the perimeter is monitored by video. Intruder drills are conducted on a regular basis. Those drills concentrate on sheltering in place in either classrooms or designated spaces that offer protection(like those designated for tornado protection). School staff's role is to safeguard the kids in these areas, not to go hunting for the intruder. The object of the intruder plan is deterrence and interim protection until the sheriff shows up. Intruder hunting is a job reserved for law enforcement.
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I doubt that student would have come had he thought they were armed. There was an officer there but he failed to act. In close proximity both weapons are almost neutralized, the AR would be more accurate and allows for a standoff, inside a classroom the handgun that advantage would be neutralized. The AR15 could have been a shotgun, or Ruger - the ammunition doesn't know which weapon fires it. I don't think that arming teachers by mandate at all, like pilots on planes but the perpetrator doesn't know who is, just that they are. With Troops to teachers, there are very capable teachers who would be able to engage and assist. We need to harden our schools and stop feeding these kids pharmaceutical drugs that numb there ability to feel.
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It depends on the person. In my opinion, veterans like myself would gladly take up the job. We could work some side job while a duo is on roaming guard. Depending on the school size, count, etc., then at least 6 per school per day.
Don't think it's feasible? The last 2 colleges I attended and graduated from had security guards at best. NONE who were armed that I saw. First college had NO walls or gates.
Second didn't until my last 8 months until I graduated. ONLY because it's in the middle of a big city and the area around it tends to have gang activity. The week I was supposed to graduate a gang fight started and a stray bullet killed a student b/c they were so close to school property.
There are 3 schools within 1.5 miles of me. I could float between all three.
Don't think it's feasible? The last 2 colleges I attended and graduated from had security guards at best. NONE who were armed that I saw. First college had NO walls or gates.
Second didn't until my last 8 months until I graduated. ONLY because it's in the middle of a big city and the area around it tends to have gang activity. The week I was supposed to graduate a gang fight started and a stray bullet killed a student b/c they were so close to school property.
There are 3 schools within 1.5 miles of me. I could float between all three.
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SFC Robert Walton
A school in INDY has a full security system well trained staff and every thing is cam monitored by staff and police the whole system only Cost $400 Thousand The police and remotely set heavy Smoke deterrents in every hallway at a touch of a button. Saw a News video of the system.
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