Posted on Feb 22, 2018
Is it realistic to believe that a teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter, using an AR-15, armed with only a handgun?
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After the shooting in Florida many people began to say arm the teachers. But they over look that a police officer was there. As a Marine I understand how difficult it is to close on and take an active shooter even with the best training and equipment. During the Dallas shooting 11 police officers was injured and another 6 was killed. Out of all the return fire none actually hit the suspect. Infact the suspect was killed by a remote control robot carrying an explosive. The reason why the suspect wasn't killed by a well aimed handgun shot is because of what we call the fog of war. When the shooting starts panic and confusion set in and the way we deal with it in the military is continually to train for those situations week in and week out. But without a third of the training people are expecting teachers to be able to identify the location of the shooter, know the movement of other armed teachers, know the movement of the innocent students and staff, close on the shooter and fire a well aimed shot without putting any students in further danger. Is that realistic?
Active Shooter
New Politics
Children
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 489
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LTC Greg Henning
This situation is extremely complex and took fifty years to reach this point today. I highly recommend a book "Our Kids" by Robert Putnam to appreciate the factors supported by data. We are experiencing a mental health crisis in our schools today. As a teacher I see our students struggling with significant issues. This generation is being raised by those who lack solid parenting skills. The over dependence on digital devices and social media have degraded social interaction and promoted social isolation. The amount of pressure on this group is huge. The choice of arming staff members is in the hands of local school districts not the Federal government. There are many simple procedures and policies that can be implemented to reduce this threat. My hope is there will be a meaningful debate on this issue not the polarizing attacks which result in nothing really changing.
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I believe that one trained teacher armed with a handgun can defend his class room from a shooter no matter that the shooter is armed with, excluding an RPG. I would not expect teachers to take the offense against the shooter but to maintain a defense in their assigned area, i.e. the classroom and defend if attached. The offense would be by the trained police/SWAT teams that respond.
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Depends on the teacher. When I was growing up I had a few teachers that were Marines and had served in the Pacific in WW II. I would have put Mr. Hubkah up against a guy with an AR-15 armed with a yard stick. If the teacher could approach or get line of sight without the shooter knowing why couldn't he cap the punk in the back of the head?
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What's the maximum effective range of a pistol as opposed to a rifle? That is why the return fire in Dallas did not hit the target. Now think about the maximum engagement distances expected inside a building. The rifle's only advantage now is ammo capacity, so, yes, somebody and with a pistol can be expected to have at least a decent chance of taking out somebody with a rifle in those circumstances, though I would still prefer a short barreled shotgun. An immediate response to an active shooter is always a better option than giving him time to shoot and reload at will unimpeded.
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Yes. You don't have to kill the shooter. You just have to suppress or deter the shooter. The shooter's fantasies don't involve being shot at. That said, an AR or AK type weapon will penetrate about anything you can put in front of you for cover. The reciprocal is definitely not true. And - anyone you see with a rifle you need to act as if they have body armor. Which your pistol ammo will not likely penetrate.
Security guard who stopped shooter credits God
"Investigators tried to track the gunman through fresh snow with the help of dogs, but lost his trail in a heavily walked area, Deputy Chief Gary Creager of Arvada police said.
About 12 hours later, police say, Murray showed up at New Life Church as a service was letting out.
Police said Monday he had an assault rifle and two handguns, and may have had as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition.
He fired on a family who were in or near their car. Two sisters, identified by police as Rachael Works, 16, and Stephanie Works, 18, were killed, and their father, David Works, 51, was also shot and is hospitalized in fair condition with two gunshot wounds. Murray then entered the church, police say, where Assam was one of several volunteer security guards on duty.
"I saw him coming through the doors," she told reporters on Monday. "I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer, and I came out of cover and identified myself, and engaged him, and took him down. And that's pretty much it."
Police said they were still investigating whether Assam's weapon killed Murray, or whether he might have died of a self-inflicted gunshot.
Assam extended her sympathy to the families of the victims "and of the gunman -- and I mean that very sincerely."
Phil Abeyta, who identified himself as Murray's uncle, appeared at another news conference and read a statement from the family asking for forgiveness.
"Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy," he said. "On behalf of our family and our son, we ask for forgiveness. We cannot understand why this has happened."
Abeyta appeared with spokesmen from the Youth With A Mission center, who confirmed that Murray had been part of a training program five years ago.
Peter Warren, director of Youth With A Mission, said Murray did not go on the mission he was training for in 2002 because managers thought that "issues relating to his health made it unsafe for him to do so."
But a man who served at the center with Murray told CNN Monday that Murray was kicked out of the mission program for strange behavior. Video Watch more about Matthew Murray's background »
A source -- a long-time member of New Life Church -- said Murray had a falling out with Youth With A Mission after working with the organization a couple of years ago. The source said Murray sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence afterward.
Earlier Monday, Boyd said the gunman was unknown to parishioners there.
"He simply showed up on our property yesterday with a gun, with the intention of hurting people, and he did," Boyd said.
Boyd said the megachurch instituted security precautions after the shootings at the Denver area mission center.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/
Security guard who stopped shooter credits God
"Investigators tried to track the gunman through fresh snow with the help of dogs, but lost his trail in a heavily walked area, Deputy Chief Gary Creager of Arvada police said.
About 12 hours later, police say, Murray showed up at New Life Church as a service was letting out.
Police said Monday he had an assault rifle and two handguns, and may have had as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition.
He fired on a family who were in or near their car. Two sisters, identified by police as Rachael Works, 16, and Stephanie Works, 18, were killed, and their father, David Works, 51, was also shot and is hospitalized in fair condition with two gunshot wounds. Murray then entered the church, police say, where Assam was one of several volunteer security guards on duty.
"I saw him coming through the doors," she told reporters on Monday. "I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer, and I came out of cover and identified myself, and engaged him, and took him down. And that's pretty much it."
Police said they were still investigating whether Assam's weapon killed Murray, or whether he might have died of a self-inflicted gunshot.
Assam extended her sympathy to the families of the victims "and of the gunman -- and I mean that very sincerely."
Phil Abeyta, who identified himself as Murray's uncle, appeared at another news conference and read a statement from the family asking for forgiveness.
"Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy," he said. "On behalf of our family and our son, we ask for forgiveness. We cannot understand why this has happened."
Abeyta appeared with spokesmen from the Youth With A Mission center, who confirmed that Murray had been part of a training program five years ago.
Peter Warren, director of Youth With A Mission, said Murray did not go on the mission he was training for in 2002 because managers thought that "issues relating to his health made it unsafe for him to do so."
But a man who served at the center with Murray told CNN Monday that Murray was kicked out of the mission program for strange behavior. Video Watch more about Matthew Murray's background »
A source -- a long-time member of New Life Church -- said Murray had a falling out with Youth With A Mission after working with the organization a couple of years ago. The source said Murray sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence afterward.
Earlier Monday, Boyd said the gunman was unknown to parishioners there.
"He simply showed up on our property yesterday with a gun, with the intention of hurting people, and he did," Boyd said.
Boyd said the megachurch instituted security precautions after the shootings at the Denver area mission center.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/
Security guard who stopped shooter credits God - CNN.com
"It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted a man who charged into her Colorado Springs church Sunday firing a weapon.
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A school shooter is coming to the teacher not the other way around. Most of these shooters have shown themselves to be cowards. They either surrender or shoot themselves when confronted with someone who can return fire. It is very realistic for a teacher to take a defensive position and be able to end an active shooter. Civilians shoot more people than do cops and they do it while not making as many mistaken shootings.
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At the ranges we’re talking about in school shootings it is absolutely reasonable and in fact, a pistol has many advantages in just handling characteristics alone. Could Ms. Suzy with minimal trading be much of a counter? Probably not but just like a terrorist, she only has to get lucky once.
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YES it is realistic to believe that an armed teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter; even in a handgun vs rifle scenario. However, you need to stop confusing your Marine mission (close with and destroy), with what a teacher should/could do (lock down, shelter in place, defend the door). I think sending a teacher to offensively hunt down and seek a fire fight with an active shooter is a bad idea.
Teachers should be taught to corral their students, lock down their room, barricade the door, take cover and be prepared to repel hostile invaders with whatever improvised weapons are at hand (throw hard objects, hit with clubs/table leg, stab with pencil, etc). Adding a firearm as a strictly defensive tool to discourage, delay, and defend against an active shooter from gaining access into the classroom and the shooters unchallenged ability to target students at will is a good idea.
The properly trained teacher simply has a more effective tool to help them defend the door from the bad guy gaining access to the room. Plus, let's remember that some teachers are prior active military (Troops to Teacher program), current military reservists and current reserve police officers, reserve deputies, or members of sheriff's posse. The teacher is not to take the role of a SWAT team member; just defend the door.
As a Marine, when you close with and destroy an enemy, is it easier to attack when your target is armed or unarmed? Are you claiming an active shooter would be unaffected if a teacher hiding behind a desk barricaded inside a locked classroom was able to shoot a round through the door a shooter was trying to kick open? At the very least, the shooter would have to expend additional time and ammo to breach the classroom; time and ammo that could not be used to simply kill kids unchallenged. Maybe that round through the door also goes through the bad guy; instantly ending the assault, motivates shooter suicide, creates a wound that at least slows the attack and reduces the unfettered carnage, or simply leads the shooter to decide to run away.
What's that gun control motto?? "If it saves only one life, it is worth it" Well if arming a qualified teacher and training the teacher to defend the door, "saves only one life".....
YES it is entirely realistic to believe that an armed teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter.
Teachers should be taught to corral their students, lock down their room, barricade the door, take cover and be prepared to repel hostile invaders with whatever improvised weapons are at hand (throw hard objects, hit with clubs/table leg, stab with pencil, etc). Adding a firearm as a strictly defensive tool to discourage, delay, and defend against an active shooter from gaining access into the classroom and the shooters unchallenged ability to target students at will is a good idea.
The properly trained teacher simply has a more effective tool to help them defend the door from the bad guy gaining access to the room. Plus, let's remember that some teachers are prior active military (Troops to Teacher program), current military reservists and current reserve police officers, reserve deputies, or members of sheriff's posse. The teacher is not to take the role of a SWAT team member; just defend the door.
As a Marine, when you close with and destroy an enemy, is it easier to attack when your target is armed or unarmed? Are you claiming an active shooter would be unaffected if a teacher hiding behind a desk barricaded inside a locked classroom was able to shoot a round through the door a shooter was trying to kick open? At the very least, the shooter would have to expend additional time and ammo to breach the classroom; time and ammo that could not be used to simply kill kids unchallenged. Maybe that round through the door also goes through the bad guy; instantly ending the assault, motivates shooter suicide, creates a wound that at least slows the attack and reduces the unfettered carnage, or simply leads the shooter to decide to run away.
What's that gun control motto?? "If it saves only one life, it is worth it" Well if arming a qualified teacher and training the teacher to defend the door, "saves only one life".....
YES it is entirely realistic to believe that an armed teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter.
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SFC (Join to see)
Please review what Charl van Wyk did with his .38 revolver to end the St James Church massacre against four attackers armed with fully automatic rifles and hand grenades.
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With the right training, it is conceivable that a teacher can defend him/herself against a shooter. It's not the rifle being defended against. It's the shooter.
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Well, not having a teacher, or anyone for that matter, armed and able to respond, has proven itself to be 100% ineffective against an armed aggressor. Also, as the case of the Aurora CO theater shooter demonstrates (There were upwards of five theaters showing the Batman movie that were closer to his residence. They differed from the one he chose, in that they allowed CCW permit holders to be armed on their premises.), people bent on mayhem prefer easy targets. What we don't hear about in the mainstream media, is the events where an armed person thwarts one of these attacks. Furthermore, establishments that deny the carrying of weapons, refuse to establish and maintain adequate screening protocols to prevent armed individuals from entering. As history demonstrates, making a law, or posting a sign, is highly inadequate.
So, would allowing trained teachers to be armed in schools be effective? Maybe. Possibly better than the status quo. A stupid plan that works, isn't stupid.
So, would allowing trained teachers to be armed in schools be effective? Maybe. Possibly better than the status quo. A stupid plan that works, isn't stupid.
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