Posted on May 12, 2016
Is it time for the Military to allow such things as haircuts, hands in pockets, and beards?
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Look at the role models each Branch Loves, Marines: in some pictures had his hands in his pockets, and no haircut, Chesty Puller, and General Patton, had his hands in his pockets and no haircut as well, SF wears beards over Seas and have their hands in their pockets. Does it really detract from performance? Is it really a Disipline problem? Could it increase unit Morale?
Standards
Grooming Standards
Discipline
Morale
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 57
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SSG (Join to see), great question for debate. I think you already know where I stand, but great question.
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No changes need to be made. Where are all these questions coming from? The beards is simple. In the Middle East it is for a cultural issue, that is all. SF has always had beards because they are SF, you aren't. A protective mask cannot seal over a beard and a private has bad hygeine to begin with, shave! Hands in pockets, no. You can't stand at parade rest with your hands in your pockets. When you have stars for rank you can do whatever you want. Haircuts, hygeine. Anything else?
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SSG (Join to see)
See thats the wrong attitude, we let Generals run around with their hands in their pockets but guess what, who signs off on AR 670-1, how can I tell my subordinate not to do it when his Battalion Commander and CSM does it in front of him. Secondly have you ever tried a on spot correction of such ranks, everyone goes nuts like you did something wrong. So I say if our top leaders do it, it cant be enforced unilaterally, get rid of it
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SSG (Join to see)
Lol I'll continue to do on spot corrections not only because its the right thing, but the reactions are priceless
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SFC Wade W.
I was an MP for 25 yrs and received many wide eye looks when correcting senior officers and NCOs about headgear, hands in pockets, hair (male and female) violations and such. As an NCO it is our responsibility and until the regulations change we need to adhere and enforce.
BTW, the shaving and hair policies are mainly for hygiene and safety, always have been. It is easier to keep your face clean or to clean it when it is shaven. Short hair or hair that is kept up is less likely to be infested or get caught in moving machinery/parts. As for the hands in the pockets it has always been expected for subordinate soldiers to always be ready to whip out a salute or to be standing at parade rest/at ease when speaking to someone who outranks them. And if you have your hands in your pockets then you are just standing around doing nothing, I can find something for you to do if you can't find something to do by yourself. Old school!!! lol
BTW, the shaving and hair policies are mainly for hygiene and safety, always have been. It is easier to keep your face clean or to clean it when it is shaven. Short hair or hair that is kept up is less likely to be infested or get caught in moving machinery/parts. As for the hands in the pockets it has always been expected for subordinate soldiers to always be ready to whip out a salute or to be standing at parade rest/at ease when speaking to someone who outranks them. And if you have your hands in your pockets then you are just standing around doing nothing, I can find something for you to do if you can't find something to do by yourself. Old school!!! lol
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Shaving and other uniform standards are in place for uniformity and good order and discipline.
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SSG (Join to see)
Look at the British Sir, they are very profficent with less stringent rules on appearance
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CW4 (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - Can't compare European military to ours. Easing up or disregarding basic uniform standards and other aspects discipline shouldn't drive performance.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sir, my issue is this AR 670-1 can't be enforced unilaterally, have you seen what happens to a E-5 if he tries to correct a 0-6, its like hurricane sandy, everyone goes nuts, our military is a check down, not up society. How can I tell PVT joe Snuffy to take his hands out of his pockets when his Battalion Staff walk around all day like that, and when I do the right thing and do a on the spot correction I either get climb my rockers, or a laugh from the officer side
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CW4 (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - I understand your point. Any leader violating AR 670-1 shouldn't attempt to enforce the standard that they don't follow. I wouldn't bust anyone for hands in the pockets because I do it too, not often but I do it.
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Not being allowed to put your hands in your pockets is the most ridiculous outdated rule there is. When we were privates we were told it was “unprofessional” which is far from true. I have personally seen the SMA with his hands in his pockets. If you don’t have gloves with you and it’s cold outside, put your hands in your pockets. It’s pretty stupid not to.
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Really, SSG? You have the audacity to use the leaders of 70 years ago as an example for today's troops? Maybe a little more time with the S-3 would bring you up-to-date.
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These are things that have outlived their purpose but since that is just how things have been traditionally it is almost a sacrilage to question them. For instance, trimmed beards were allowed until WWI when gas masks needed bare skin for a seal, then all those soldiers proudly went home which made shaving the fasion of the 20th century. When everyone forgot the reason for the the rule reasons are invented.
The IDF allows beards, doesn't know D&C, has been using the same uniform for 60+ years, enforces universal conscription, but yet has consistant obliterated all opposing forces even when surounded and outnumbered 12 to 1. I say this because it would appear that the social conventions you've mentioned never had any effect on the IDF's performance.
The IDF allows beards, doesn't know D&C, has been using the same uniform for 60+ years, enforces universal conscription, but yet has consistant obliterated all opposing forces even when surounded and outnumbered 12 to 1. I say this because it would appear that the social conventions you've mentioned never had any effect on the IDF's performance.
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Are hands in fleece pockets justified when its cold and you were never issued gloves?
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Just to add to the discussion by demonstrating how allowing troops to put their hands in their pockets can have an adverse effect on discipline and duty performance, I share this picture of then-MAJ Charles Kettles, taken about the same time that he earned the Medal of Honor he will be presented with sometime real soon (for repeatedly trying to destroy government property by not only leading a flight of 6 Hueys to evac the wounded from a surrounded unit, but also flying back in without a crew to fetch 8 soldiers who had been left behind).
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