Posted on Aug 16, 2016
Is our presence around the world encouraging / creating terrorism?
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http://thinkbynumbers.org/terrorism/suicide-terrorism-statistics/
In a post earlier today SrA Edward Vong sagely highlighted that nation building along with military action may be desired. The question that I raise above contends that our presence may be the catalyst to terrorist action. The article bears some of that out in a fact based by the numbers way.
In a post earlier today SrA Edward Vong sagely highlighted that nation building along with military action may be desired. The question that I raise above contends that our presence may be the catalyst to terrorist action. The article bears some of that out in a fact based by the numbers way.
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 18
COL Lee Flemming
Sir, I am sure a lot of people have been discussing this issue because it has been the national security biggest challenge the USA had to deal with in the past 20 years.
While it could sound appeasing to fight terror organizations in their nests, results will always be mixed. In today's hybrids conflicts (you can destroy enemy military assets with a missile but a drone will only have a very low impact on their ideology, if not the opposite effect - Elie Tenenbaum) it's hard to implement a strategy effective to solve every problems. However, let us not fall in statistics out of their contexts (missions from 1993 to 2005 had been very different, same as our enemies) and assume that correlation proves causation.
Sir, I am sure a lot of people have been discussing this issue because it has been the national security biggest challenge the USA had to deal with in the past 20 years.
While it could sound appeasing to fight terror organizations in their nests, results will always be mixed. In today's hybrids conflicts (you can destroy enemy military assets with a missile but a drone will only have a very low impact on their ideology, if not the opposite effect - Elie Tenenbaum) it's hard to implement a strategy effective to solve every problems. However, let us not fall in statistics out of their contexts (missions from 1993 to 2005 had been very different, same as our enemies) and assume that correlation proves causation.
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COL Lee Flemming
Well said 1LT (Join to see)! Thanks so much for your thoughts on this topic. Your statements about mixed results, and kinetic operations lack of impact on ideology are ring very true!!
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1LT (Join to see)
Well, sadly today's conflicts have become more and more complex and only a few can claim to have all the elements in their possession to make their decisions. However, it would be foolish to disregard ideology as their principle motivation and this could possibly be the only ground we have yet decided to fight them on. But well, who cares? Last time I checked it wasn't philosophy books that kept the war industry going...
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We can note there's several factors at work here. The Taliban isn't conducting as many suicide attacks in Afghanistan pre-2001 since they own the country. In Iraq, Saddam had managed to quell Sunni Wahhabism through a brutal dictatorship. Once those repressive governments fell, that opened the flood gates for religious radicals seeking jihad since a fight was now on their back door.
The proximity of the desired target population for terrorism (Westerners) fueled the rise in attacks. We'd also note an increase in terror attacks following the US withdrawal from Iraq despite troop levels in the area dropping dramatically. It's the same concept as picking target priority. Pape's argument is that terrorists only fight countries that are engaged in geopolitical disputes. However, in 2007 bin Laden demanded that the US convert to Islam or he would wage jihad against us. Daesh stated in their Dabiq magazine that they would conquer the world for Islam and raise their flag over the Vatican. This is where Pape's argument falls flat. He's discounting the long-term goals of jihadists for their responses to immediate enemies who they need to defeat first to establish legitimacy and ensure the survival and spread of their ideological views. Expending resources to kill Venezuelan Catholics is great, but they got bigger fish to fry first.
Terrorism has increased because terrorism is theater, and globalization has given these radicals an audience, where even 100 years ago, hardly anyone would have heard about these conflicts. What's more, 100 years ago our society could stomach doing what was necessary to get rid of an ideological enemy. This solution is war in its purest form, not the surgical tip-toeing we do today, but the destruction of the society which holds those views. We have tried to humanize a process which is inherently inhumane, but the sad fact remains that the only society that has ever pacified this religious group was the Mongols, and they stacked heads in pyramids. Consider that in 1938 only 7% of Germany was Nazi Party members. Today, according to the Gallop Center for Muslim studies, 36.6% of Muslims in the Middle East feel that 9/11 was at least partially justified. The peaceful majority in both instances has been irrelevant. Even in the UK, 1 out of 3 Muslim males in university feel that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy. What's more, we're allied with the Saudis and their own internal politics are so riddled with Wahhabists that even the royals are unable to address the growing radicalism without risking revolt. Keep in mind while our society is able to empathize with a suffering population that they see on TV, the opposite is largely not true for the people in the Middle East and this puts us at a distinct disadvantage.
The proximity of the desired target population for terrorism (Westerners) fueled the rise in attacks. We'd also note an increase in terror attacks following the US withdrawal from Iraq despite troop levels in the area dropping dramatically. It's the same concept as picking target priority. Pape's argument is that terrorists only fight countries that are engaged in geopolitical disputes. However, in 2007 bin Laden demanded that the US convert to Islam or he would wage jihad against us. Daesh stated in their Dabiq magazine that they would conquer the world for Islam and raise their flag over the Vatican. This is where Pape's argument falls flat. He's discounting the long-term goals of jihadists for their responses to immediate enemies who they need to defeat first to establish legitimacy and ensure the survival and spread of their ideological views. Expending resources to kill Venezuelan Catholics is great, but they got bigger fish to fry first.
Terrorism has increased because terrorism is theater, and globalization has given these radicals an audience, where even 100 years ago, hardly anyone would have heard about these conflicts. What's more, 100 years ago our society could stomach doing what was necessary to get rid of an ideological enemy. This solution is war in its purest form, not the surgical tip-toeing we do today, but the destruction of the society which holds those views. We have tried to humanize a process which is inherently inhumane, but the sad fact remains that the only society that has ever pacified this religious group was the Mongols, and they stacked heads in pyramids. Consider that in 1938 only 7% of Germany was Nazi Party members. Today, according to the Gallop Center for Muslim studies, 36.6% of Muslims in the Middle East feel that 9/11 was at least partially justified. The peaceful majority in both instances has been irrelevant. Even in the UK, 1 out of 3 Muslim males in university feel that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy. What's more, we're allied with the Saudis and their own internal politics are so riddled with Wahhabists that even the royals are unable to address the growing radicalism without risking revolt. Keep in mind while our society is able to empathize with a suffering population that they see on TV, the opposite is largely not true for the people in the Middle East and this puts us at a distinct disadvantage.
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COL Lee Flemming
Capt (Join to see) awesome! You dug deep on this one. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts!!
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MAJ (Join to see)
"Terrorism has increased because terrorism is theater, and globalization has given these radicals an audience, where even 100 years ago, hardly anyone would have heard about these conflicts."
Well said indeed! The target of destruction is merely a set piece to them: the target of action is the audience watching and reacting.
Well said indeed! The target of destruction is merely a set piece to them: the target of action is the audience watching and reacting.
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I briefly looked over this and immediately noticed it appears to cherry pick the data by only showing the period between 1993 through 2005. To truly show a correlation of troop presence to terrorist activity against US citizens, I would like to see post 2005 and pre 1993 as well. Also, the article speaks initially to two so called "facts". One of which included "95% of suicide terrorist attacks are targeted at occupying foreign militaries." How does that explain the targeting of Christians in Iraq (or Iraqi citizens themselves)? What about the attacks in Pakistan by extremist element trying to influence the Pakistan government? I could come up with more examples but essentially I really don't think the premise of this article is accurate.
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COL Lee Flemming
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin understand all. The question is mine and the article is a provocation which obviously has faults. Could US presence be causing an increase in terrorist activity? Maybe. In some cases we may very well chose to accept the risks of those attacks to support US policy.
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Well, I could also draw a correlation to our leaving our homes to go to work, school, run errands is leading to an uptick in muggings. We have national interests in the Middle East which requires us to take on the risks associated with being there. In the meantime, like any would be authoritarian organization, we are used as scapegoats to draw support for their effort. This is no different than Nazi Germany blaming the Jews for all their trouble. They unify the uneducated/uninformed on a common premise to build their power base. Without the US there, another scapegoat would be created and the region would not become any more stable.
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COL Lee Flemming
To a degree, I would say yes.
Increasing our presence in hostile countries can create further hostility, especially when we are in occupation of what some may define as under educated, and unstable regions. Local propaganda will encourage locals to retaliate against our presence, why? Because we're in their country and they want us out. We believe we are in the right and so do they. If a foreign nation were to increase their presence here, we would do the same and retaliate.
To a degree, I would say yes.
Increasing our presence in hostile countries can create further hostility, especially when we are in occupation of what some may define as under educated, and unstable regions. Local propaganda will encourage locals to retaliate against our presence, why? Because we're in their country and they want us out. We believe we are in the right and so do they. If a foreign nation were to increase their presence here, we would do the same and retaliate.
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Here's a thought: instead of picking ONLY those terrorist acts that FOLLOW our troop increases, what about looking at ALL major terrorist action? OF COURSE it's going to look like we're "causing" or "provoking" terrorism if you only look at what happens AFTER we move.
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COL Lee Flemming
MAJ (Join to see) true, but the question stands. The article may assume one thing that you can philosophically contend, but it still does not mean that the proposition is not true albiet improperly supported.
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MAJ (Join to see)
The cherry-picking of data to show ONLY increases that FOLLOWED our own strongly suggests that the data were selected to match the predetermined conclusion, rather than vise versa. This is intellectual and academic dishonesty, however popular or widespread the practice. Take the full data sets, and allow that other factors, such as diplomatic events (treaties, et c.), media response, and target-opportunities (New Years' and Bastille-Day crowds, for example) also play their own roles in enemy escalation. I'm not saying there's NO effect, but that there's much more to it than just U.S. DoD involvement. Orlando's fallout influenced Bastille Day, for example, without the help of the DoD.
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COL Lee Flemming
MAJ (Join to see) as I said your statements are true about the article and the data, but that does not mean that there is no merit in asking or evaluating the question itself. In fact, our presence could very well be causing an increase in terrorist activity, and it is the job of our senior leadership to way the pros and cons of that possibility.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Plenty of merit, so long as the conclusions follow the data, sir, rather than the other way around. For my part, I believe they feed off of one another: groups like ISIS and Al Q, Hammaas and Hezbollah increase their activity when we increase ours because they know they've got an audience, they have our attention and they'd be foolish (militarily and strategically) NOT to make the most of it. It does not follow, however, that our increased attention on them and on their actions are TO BLAME FOR their increases, nor that backing out of the engagement will in any way quell their violence. When their targets run away, bullies pounce. And whether we like it, or it was even a good idea in the first place, or not, we as the United States have committed ourselves to and MUST remain IN this fight. We pray we are the big dogs driving the wolves from their lairs to destruction, but being merely the Leonidas standing in the gap to slow their Xerxes is better than becoming fawning jackals in their tigerish wake or the Lhasa Apsos--- or the sheep, ourselves--- as these wolves assault the flock.
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In order to follow this line of thinking we would have to also assume that attacks by muslims in France, Sweden, Thailand and others is also because of their military presence and nation building efforts. Muslims were probably mad at the Italians for their military might when they attacked the Achille Lauro back in 1985.
Now, I'm no great thinker of thoughts, but it seems to me that they really don't need an external excuse to carry out terroristic acts. They give themselves plenty of reasons and excuses to do what they do.
Now, I'm no great thinker of thoughts, but it seems to me that they really don't need an external excuse to carry out terroristic acts. They give themselves plenty of reasons and excuses to do what they do.
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PVT (Join to see)
COL Lee Flemming That can be said of any conflict regardless of the participants. Bringing armed combatants with opposing views into close proximity is going to necessarily increase violent interactions. We didn't have a significant presence in the ME prior to 9/11, but there were still attacks. I don't think there is cause to be amazed that they are going to attack our people if our people are over there. Or that they, being who they are, would encourage attacks among civilian populations. Again, they have demonstrated that they are willing to do that anyway regardless of whether or not there was a heavy military presence in the ME.
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PVT (Join to see)
COL Lee Flemming I apologize for not clarifying my answer. The short answer is "No." Given that muslim terrorists have carried out attacks across the globe in diverse counties not normally known for their military might (like Belgium) and prior to our military build-up in the area, I think it is safe to assume that the answer to the question is that our military presence is not the primary cause of terrorism. It's their ideology/theology. I'm not sure why we wouldn't take them for their word when they (ISIS) say they are waging a religious war.
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COL Lee Flemming
PVT (Join to see) awesome!! This answer absolutely contends with the premise of my question and as highlighted faulty article, although I would say more ideology versus the religion.
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Which came first: The attack or the counter attack? There is magic in words. Alakazam, and an attack is launched. The next battle is one of words: Who attacked first. I am tempted to pin that dishonor on the attack of 9/11, thereby justifying the response. Others may attribute another incident that "inspired" the attack of 9/11. From there, as the chart depicts, the war of terror escalated. What the chart fails to depict is which came first, the rise in engagement or the rise in terrorism? We need a finer timeline to distinguish that.
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Just a gut reaction is that yes, the presence of the US Military is a major irritant to people around the world. Drone strikes that kill innocents have got to be affecting people like the truck driver in Nice, the Paris shooters and others.
Walt
Walt
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CPT Jack Durish
Very good observation. In fact, I'm beginning to think that the drone attacks incite far more hatred and response than our mere presence
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Capt (Join to see)
This is also the same population that talks about the Crusades as if they happened yesterday. In areas like Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Libya, etc. these people get a lot of information from word of mouth and propaganda, not watching the 24/7 news cycle or reading a newspaper.
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It isn't just our presence around the world, but the fact that the rest of the world knows it has us stretched thin at home. It is time we started taking care of ourselves a little more and not be a babysitter to the rest of the world. The increased U.S. attacks alone show that we should be concentrating on securing our borders and not multiple countries around the globe.
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COL Lee Flemming
SrA Chris "Shadow" McGee you raise a couple of interesting points; the first being that we are stretched thin. Are you contending that we have created a seam that terrorists are exploiting? If so, please support. And secondly, borders?
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SrA Chris "Shadow" McGee
Sorry, borders is just a broad term i use for our nations defense, as well as the defenses of any other country. I feel that with such a large percentage of our Military force away from home, the terrorists feel it is their time to take advantage, hence the increased attacks on U.S. soil. If everyone knew we were going to be taking care of ourselves for a while, most of our troops back home and prepared to respond immediately, we may see a decline in attacks. Terrorists do not seem to fear our LEO's as much as they should, but seem to make decisions based on military presence.
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As we attempt to attrit the Centers of Gravities of our enemies, they respond with an external expansion of attacking the soft underbellies of society.
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Capt Walter Miller
CPT Joseph K Murdock - It might be that they have been hitting our centers of gravity more effectively than we have theirs.
Walt
Walt
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CPT Joseph K Murdock
Good point of view. There lies the potential for society to gain passion in probably different ways.
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