Posted on Jun 24, 2015
Is the Anti-Confederacy crowd the equivalent of the American ISIS?
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The answer is "Obviously not."
Think about this though: The Anti-Confederacy crowd is calling for the removal of historic artifacts and memorabilia from public places because it is offensive to some people. This started with the Confederate Battle flag (more or less like a Bn Guidon) and has quickly spread to statues, memorials, and even the cleansing of place names associated with Confederate soldiers. In the ISIS camp they are calling for the destruction and cleansing of historic places, artifacts, and memorabilia because it upsets them and their view of how things should be.
How are those things different? Is it because we're civilized and they're savages? Because we're "debating" it and they not? I use the quotation marks there because it really isn't a debate, but a set of demands repeated often and loudly enough to stifle any response other than capitulation.
In both cases you have groups of people who aren't interested in debate - it's their way or no way, their way or you're a racist. Believe me, neither group will stop when they've gotten what they want. Like spoiled children who got the candy after crying loudly enough, the Anti-Confederacy crowd will use the same tactic to gain more cessions.
What say you? Are we headed down the same path of historic cleansing in our country? Eradicating any trace of a history that bothers some people?
Think about this though: The Anti-Confederacy crowd is calling for the removal of historic artifacts and memorabilia from public places because it is offensive to some people. This started with the Confederate Battle flag (more or less like a Bn Guidon) and has quickly spread to statues, memorials, and even the cleansing of place names associated with Confederate soldiers. In the ISIS camp they are calling for the destruction and cleansing of historic places, artifacts, and memorabilia because it upsets them and their view of how things should be.
How are those things different? Is it because we're civilized and they're savages? Because we're "debating" it and they not? I use the quotation marks there because it really isn't a debate, but a set of demands repeated often and loudly enough to stifle any response other than capitulation.
In both cases you have groups of people who aren't interested in debate - it's their way or no way, their way or you're a racist. Believe me, neither group will stop when they've gotten what they want. Like spoiled children who got the candy after crying loudly enough, the Anti-Confederacy crowd will use the same tactic to gain more cessions.
What say you? Are we headed down the same path of historic cleansing in our country? Eradicating any trace of a history that bothers some people?
ISIS
Politics
Confederate Flag
Posted >1 y ago
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We the people need to get educated. The ignorance of the facts and the history is getting too much for me to stand. I begin to fear for the USA.
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In the State Capitol Building in St Paul, MN, there is stored a Confederate Flag once owned by the 22d Virginia Regt seized by the 1st Minnesota Volunteers at Little Round Top during the Battle of Gettysburg. The 1st Minnesota was devastated by repeated charges, but managed to hold the line even when they had run out of ammunition by TAKING THE WEAPONS AND AMMO OF FALLEN CONFEDERATES AFTER CLUBBING THEM TO DEATH.
Every couple of years Virginia tries to get Minnesota's governor to return it to them.
I think Jesse Ventura had the best response so far. He told them (not an exact quote) "Next time you guys throw a Civil War, we will bring it with and see if you can take it back from us".
I couldn't stand Ventura, but that was money.
Every couple of years Virginia tries to get Minnesota's governor to return it to them.
I think Jesse Ventura had the best response so far. He told them (not an exact quote) "Next time you guys throw a Civil War, we will bring it with and see if you can take it back from us".
I couldn't stand Ventura, but that was money.
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana
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PO1 John Miller
LCpl Mark Lefler, a lot of people glorify the past. We as Americans do with the celebration of the 4th of July!
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PVT (Join to see)
Good question. I phrased it that way for the sake of convenience rather than to identify one side of an argument between polar opposites (i.e. Pro- vs. Anti-). In my opinion it's really a question of pro- vs anti-freedom (of speech, expression). That is, there is one side saying this is a symbol of racism, and the other side saying it's a symbol of their heritage or, in some cases, geography (I live in the South).
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I can't believe you posted the question that way.. seirously? do you see anti confederacy crowd beheading people? throwing people off of buildings? If anything it'd be closer to the pro confederacy crowd since the confederacy was all about slavery and misogyny and oppression of people.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
i could make the same argument for the pro confederacy crowd in believing what the confederacy stood for.
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PVT (Join to see)
LCpl Mark Lefler Alright. Let's hear where the Pro-Free Speech/Expression crowd are destroying or eradicating historical emblems or monuments here in the States in any similar way to what's now being tossed about. Removing flags, monuments, re-naming military installations, etc.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
no one is renaming military installations, the flag should go, its the american equal of the nazi flag, as for monuments, thats questionable, they stand for something that was a dark piece of history and really shouldn't be venerated.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
Lincoln was forward thinking, he wanted to bring the country back together not alienate the confed states.
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Great post Sfc Lyden. I believe the fault lies with the liberal media's stranglehold grip on information. They are pushing an agenda of hatred and division on the entire country. They openly attack or attempt to discredit any news agency that attempts to provide actual news to the people. I don't know what the end game is but critical thinking tells me something unpleasant is on the horizon.
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No comparison to ISIS. Any such comparison would be nonsensical, and meanest to demonize those who oppose the purpose of the statues.
Consider this speech:
"The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South—When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States—Praise God."
Anglo Saxon race. Clearly a reference to caucasians, not Confederate Soldiers. Four years succeeding the war. What was he referring to? He was referring to the Klan protecting white southerner Americans from African Americans by lynchings. In fact, he admitted, "One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head."
He gave his speech at the unveiling of "Silent Sam."
Certainly, if you avoid, turn a blind eye to, or dismiss the timing of the erection of these "war memorials," and the rhetoric of those who raised them, while also ignoring the backdrop of racists terrorizing, lynching and murdering innocent Americans during the relevant period, sure they are just "innocent" historical statues. It you consider them in context, they are symbols of white supremacy, and the descendants of those who suffered, were murdered and terrorized under Jim Crow, aren't seeking the removal of deliberately placed splinters to their souls, yes, they are just like ISIS.
Consider this speech:
"The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South—When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States—Praise God."
Anglo Saxon race. Clearly a reference to caucasians, not Confederate Soldiers. Four years succeeding the war. What was he referring to? He was referring to the Klan protecting white southerner Americans from African Americans by lynchings. In fact, he admitted, "One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head."
He gave his speech at the unveiling of "Silent Sam."
Certainly, if you avoid, turn a blind eye to, or dismiss the timing of the erection of these "war memorials," and the rhetoric of those who raised them, while also ignoring the backdrop of racists terrorizing, lynching and murdering innocent Americans during the relevant period, sure they are just "innocent" historical statues. It you consider them in context, they are symbols of white supremacy, and the descendants of those who suffered, were murdered and terrorized under Jim Crow, aren't seeking the removal of deliberately placed splinters to their souls, yes, they are just like ISIS.
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PVT (Join to see)
I think you may have skipped the part where I said "obviously not." I appreciate your passion, and for taking time to respond to my question. Perhaps I was a little too flippant in suggesting the comparison. On the other hand I still think the forces within our country are far too eager to repeat the mistakes of Post-WWII Germany who outlawed any kind of Nazi representation in art, architecture, etc. in some kind of attempt to atone for their national sin. of course erasing those things from the public eye didn't erase history for now while there are still people around to remember it. What will eventually happen, is already happening, is people eager to repeat the same mistakes, or attempt the same kind of control because the truth isn't spoken about. It's whitewashed (no white-supremacy intended).
My intent here isn't to defend slavery, or the Confederacy, or even people like Julian Carr whose speech you quoted without citing. My intent is to say there is value in remembering our collective history, even if it is unpleasant.
My intent here isn't to defend slavery, or the Confederacy, or even people like Julian Carr whose speech you quoted without citing. My intent is to say there is value in remembering our collective history, even if it is unpleasant.
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1SG (Join to see)
PVT (Join to see) I didn't miss where you said "obviously not," nor your comparison of those who want the statues removed to ISIS below that.
The German symbols existed, and weren't created as part of the Jim Crow effort. The intent wasn't to remember the war, but to place a splinter in the eyes of many. It was not intended as art; and not architecture.
Carr's speech was honest about what many of the statues meant when erected, and still mean to many.
Likely missed copying his name since I was posting on phone.
I don't believe the comparison to post WWII Germany is accurate. It's not to erase the history of the war any more than Carr's speech was a tribute to the Confederate Soldiers who fought and died. Rather, it was about the roles of the Confederate Soldiers to keep the bottom rail on the bottom, and keeping the "purist Anglo Saxon race."
The German symbols existed, and weren't created as part of the Jim Crow effort. The intent wasn't to remember the war, but to place a splinter in the eyes of many. It was not intended as art; and not architecture.
Carr's speech was honest about what many of the statues meant when erected, and still mean to many.
Likely missed copying his name since I was posting on phone.
I don't believe the comparison to post WWII Germany is accurate. It's not to erase the history of the war any more than Carr's speech was a tribute to the Confederate Soldiers who fought and died. Rather, it was about the roles of the Confederate Soldiers to keep the bottom rail on the bottom, and keeping the "purist Anglo Saxon race."
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PVT (Join to see)
Alright. All comparisons aside, I think the thing that matters most to me is the eagerness and frenzy with which people go about to dismantle monuments and rename buildings and so forth, as if erasing the sight of history will erase history. Of course it doesn't, but what it does do is to erase the memory of history. Destroying monuments and so forth is what totalitarian regimes do. They don't want you to remember any history other than their own. It's easier to tell lies when the population doesn't know the truth to begin with.
My original question, perhaps not worded as well as it could have been, was to spark conversation as to whether or not we, as a society, are not better than some totalitarian regime. In the four years since the original post I certainly wonder. Because it doesn't stop with monuments. It continues with book burning - not in the traditional sense - but the censoring of online content that some people find offensive. It continues with shouting down people with whom you disagree, with establishing a "free speech zone" on a college campus, and then doing away with that. It continues with assaulting people who didn't vote the way you do, because now shouting them down isn't enough. Tearing down statues is a symptom of a deeper sickness, and the cure is knowledge not ignorance.
My original question, perhaps not worded as well as it could have been, was to spark conversation as to whether or not we, as a society, are not better than some totalitarian regime. In the four years since the original post I certainly wonder. Because it doesn't stop with monuments. It continues with book burning - not in the traditional sense - but the censoring of online content that some people find offensive. It continues with shouting down people with whom you disagree, with establishing a "free speech zone" on a college campus, and then doing away with that. It continues with assaulting people who didn't vote the way you do, because now shouting them down isn't enough. Tearing down statues is a symptom of a deeper sickness, and the cure is knowledge not ignorance.
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The "anti-confederacy" was called the Union, and it won. 150 years ago. This confederate crap has gotten out of hand way before the past few days. The war has been over, the South needs to get over it. As it has been said, taking down the flag doesn't say you can't honor your fallen, or honor those who stood for your cause. Just that You shouldn't be flying a flag that is 100% against the United States of America. Of course we need to remember the battles, legendary generals, and cause of the war (which was so much more than slavery). Do you see a hammer and scicle flying over the Kremlin? a swastika flying over Berlin? No, because it is an anti-government, national, everything that country stands for flag. Why is the Confederate Battle Flag (it's not the stars and bars, or the flag of the confederacy, as someone said earlier - its a battle flag, like a guidon) allowed to be flown and so carelessy used within the country.
I don't consider it a symbol of hate, racism, or intolerance. It is a symbol of anti-American thinking, of wanting to secede, and of a failed nation. Too many people these days want that flag to be something it's not.
I don't consider it a symbol of hate, racism, or intolerance. It is a symbol of anti-American thinking, of wanting to secede, and of a failed nation. Too many people these days want that flag to be something it's not.
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PVT (Join to see)
CW2 (Join to see) Well said, and I agree that it represents a conquored nation. That conquored nation just happened to be our own nation at one point which makes this a bit trickier than just what's on the surface. In this context, however, the "anti-confederacy" folks I'm referring to are those who seem bent on not only removing the confederate flag, but of defacing, removing or destroying monuments, on renaming military bases, on eradicating basicall every reference to the confederacy. Mind you, that flag means nothing to me, and I agree it shouldn't be displayed in any official capacity. However the one in question is actually flying over a civil war monument that happens to be on the state house grounds. Kind of like an outdoor museum. I'm looking at a bigger issue of what amounts to encroaching on our freedom to express ourselves in whatever way without taking offense at every little thing, or worrying that we might tick off some hyper-sensitive dork.
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CW2 (Join to see)
The desecration of monuments is just wrong, regardless. Monuments are to remember history, not to flaunt it. Renaming a base, that's just stupid, we're honoring a brilliant general, not what he fought for. As for this one flag on state house grounds. I would say perhaps take down the flying flag, but place a smaller bronzed flag in its place. It would not be so egregious and would still honor the momument.
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SGT (Join to see)
PVT (Join to see) - Negative. The CSA was not a ‘conquered nation’. It was a Rebellion that had to be put down by force.
They never achieved independence, and they were never recognized by any other nation as legitimate.
They never achieved independence, and they were never recognized by any other nation as legitimate.
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I ,for one, think it should be kept, just not flown on government property. We dont fly any other nations flag. It is part of our history, it is a part of what made us what we are today. Show the scars that we as a country have endured.
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