Posted on Jul 2, 2015
Is the semi-centralized promotion system hurting quality NCOs when it comes to promotion?
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The current semi-centralized promotion system (specifically concerning SSGs) authorizes 280 points towards military education. This is broken down into NCOES, Resident Military Training, and Computer Based Training. If you have ever been one of the most capable NCOs in your MOS at your unit, chances are you were the last to attend training. At least that has been my experience, and the experience of many NCOs I know. These quality NCOs 'hold down the fort' so others can attend training. This puts quality NCOs at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to promotion, because 280 points is a big chunk out of the total 800.
The most recent revisions to the promotion system has ALC worth between 90 and 112 promotion points. NCOs who have had the opportunity to attend ALC will almost always sit higher on the promotion list due to be allowed this opportunity. I am of the opinion that an NCO who maxes out multiple sections that required personal time and commitment to complete has more motivation and dedication towards being a quality leader than those who have simply been afforded the opportunity to attend a school. The experience gained on a deployment is many times more beneficial than NCOES, yet 30-months of being deployed (combat) is only allocated a maximum of 60 points. TDY assignments don't even hold value, but similar to deployments require a commitment that allows less time for military education.
Should the point system be modified to accommodate soldiers who have been unable to attend these courses through no fault of their own? Should points be allocated differently? If yes, how? Is the current system hurting quality NCOs?
The Army has many unique missions and well the promotion system may work well for 90% of units, it could be hurting the other 10%. With the downsizing that is occurring, we need to learn to do more with less, does the current system enable us to promote the best quality NCOs that are going to help shape the force for the future?
***THIS HAS BEEN MODIFIED SO THE RESPONSES FOCUS ON THE OVERALL TOPIC AND NOT MY INDIVIDUAL SITUATION****
The most recent revisions to the promotion system has ALC worth between 90 and 112 promotion points. NCOs who have had the opportunity to attend ALC will almost always sit higher on the promotion list due to be allowed this opportunity. I am of the opinion that an NCO who maxes out multiple sections that required personal time and commitment to complete has more motivation and dedication towards being a quality leader than those who have simply been afforded the opportunity to attend a school. The experience gained on a deployment is many times more beneficial than NCOES, yet 30-months of being deployed (combat) is only allocated a maximum of 60 points. TDY assignments don't even hold value, but similar to deployments require a commitment that allows less time for military education.
Should the point system be modified to accommodate soldiers who have been unable to attend these courses through no fault of their own? Should points be allocated differently? If yes, how? Is the current system hurting quality NCOs?
The Army has many unique missions and well the promotion system may work well for 90% of units, it could be hurting the other 10%. With the downsizing that is occurring, we need to learn to do more with less, does the current system enable us to promote the best quality NCOs that are going to help shape the force for the future?
***THIS HAS BEEN MODIFIED SO THE RESPONSES FOCUS ON THE OVERALL TOPIC AND NOT MY INDIVIDUAL SITUATION****
Promotion Points
Promotions
NCOES
Military Education
Leadership
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 8
My favorite is all of the required military education/training we are to do, yet no points are authorized for some of that training
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Ryan Rodney - Sorry, I didn't mean all training that is required. I obviously was not clear. Certainly my error. One example I can think of, is that of WLC. I had attended WLC after my packet for SGT was submitted and recommended, so obviously I couldn't use the points for that packet, yet, I was not able to utilize those WLC points for my SSG packet.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
SSG Ryan Rodney Back to your first point, if this training is required then why assign points to it? (ref. WLC/ALC/SLC)
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I feel people need to be promoted on their leadership skills as well as MOS knowledge. Yes you will need to be in a specific grade for x amount of months but then the above should be looked at instead of physical aspects.
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Some branches are different, but within the past year, attendance for NCOES is now decided by HRC through an OML they dictates to units. Commanders can defer attendance for specific Soldiers, usually frowned upon unless it is medically related, but units can't request to send so and so to NCOES schools now, they are told who to send. I do not know if this is branch specific though.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
That's interesting to know. Since I'm one of two Army NCOs in my MOS, the last time I talked to branch they said they wouldn't send me anywhere because it would put my unit at under 50% manpower. Yes, I've tried reasoning with them and that ridiculous policy.
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SFC (Join to see)
Yes, mission always comes first, but it saddens me that there are leaders who stop developing their Soldiers instead of finding ways to accomplish the mission while developing Soldiers simultaneously. Combat or other missions aside - understood - but the show must go on... A good Command would find a way to continue the show for a few months while you improve yourself and potentially learn something to bring back and improve the unit.
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Easily, yes. It takes into consideration too much that can be written off. The semi-centralized promotion system appears to emphasize too much on PT scores and not enough on overall soldiering.
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Call your branch professional development NCO and ask to be slotted for ALC. It's pretty tough for a unit to override that person. It takes a battalion commander to sign off on a 4187 for an operational deletion for an NCOES, if I'm remember correctly.
Also, was this the question you meant to ask, or were you really trying to figure out how to get points? In response to your original question, everyone has had heartburn about the semi-centralized system since I went to the board 10 years ago. It was changed then because people who constantly deployed didn't have time to get points, now deployments count toward promotion. It's an ugly system but it's the best one since we haven't invented something better yet.
Also, was this the question you meant to ask, or were you really trying to figure out how to get points? In response to your original question, everyone has had heartburn about the semi-centralized system since I went to the board 10 years ago. It was changed then because people who constantly deployed didn't have time to get points, now deployments count toward promotion. It's an ugly system but it's the best one since we haven't invented something better yet.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Not concerned about myself, though I do wish that more training courses counted for promotion points. I'm questioning the system in general, I know it will never be perfect, but deployments provide way more leadership and technical experience in most capacities than ALC. Yet ALC is worth 90-112 points, but deployments you can only get 60 (30-months deployed). I am currently on a 6-month TDY for mission requirements, but this TDY doesn't count towards training, deployment, etc, but it provides spades more experience than sitting in garrison. A soldier shouldn't have to choose between an experience that will make them a better soldier and a school that may or may not improve their leadership skills for promotion. The Army has a lot of unique missions and what might work for 90% of units when it comes to promotion hurts the other 10%.
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SGT Wiley,
I am very cautious but if everything is exactly the way you put it, then it sounds to me like your leadership from you section SGT to your company commander are failing you big time. Way back when I was an enlisted Soldier, our monthly counseling sections were the time to discuss about promotions and schools. During that time I was told when I could go and what I needed to do to ensure that I was eligible.
My advice to you will is to bring it up at your next counseling. Counseling sections are your opportunities to voice your concerns to your chain of command. Don't let it stop you from continuing to perform at highest level
I am very cautious but if everything is exactly the way you put it, then it sounds to me like your leadership from you section SGT to your company commander are failing you big time. Way back when I was an enlisted Soldier, our monthly counseling sections were the time to discuss about promotions and schools. During that time I was told when I could go and what I needed to do to ensure that I was eligible.
My advice to you will is to bring it up at your next counseling. Counseling sections are your opportunities to voice your concerns to your chain of command. Don't let it stop you from continuing to perform at highest level
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SGT Kristin Wiley
CPT (Join to see)
I don't receive counseling statements in any capacity. I don't have a section SGT or a company commander. I work in a Joint Task Force and am one of 3 Army NCOs in the whole command. Brining up these issues has only caused my senior leadership to label me a trouble maker.
I don't receive counseling statements in any capacity. I don't have a section SGT or a company commander. I work in a Joint Task Force and am one of 3 Army NCOs in the whole command. Brining up these issues has only caused my senior leadership to label me a trouble maker.
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CPT (Join to see)
That's not good. Do you write your own NCOER? How do you get an NCOER without counselings? Do you have anyone above you? Counseling is a very good tool for your supervisor to let you know how you're performing and for you to let them know what your goals are and what help you need from him/her to achieve that goal. I am aware that the military in general has made the connotation of counseling be a negative one but it should not be. Back in my early military days I use to freak out when I was told that I was to receive my counseling. Now, I look forward to it because it's my opportunity to have a one on one with my rater.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
My Army element command has talked to my leadership multiple times about writing me counseling statements, unfortunately my supervisors are DOD civilians and are not help accountable for not meeting the service standards of their subordinates. I have mostly written my last three NCOERs. I've even started writing my own counselings in the hopes my leadership would use it as an example to actually provide me with a counseling. The one time I did get a counseling they asked me to sign it with a different date, which I was not willing to do.
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Given all of the things that you have done to ensure your own success, I view this as a leadership failure rather than a system limitation. As with all systems, there are weaknesses and areas for manipulation. The solution you requested, school en route during PCS, is the ideal one and should not have been denied. That being said, your Rater & Senior Rater have a shared responsibility to ensure your career progression is not hampered. If they are including, "send to ALC immediately" on your NCOER based on your performance and the opportunity is not being afforded you (over 3 years), I would say that it is time to bring a heavier bat to bear. I'd invite CSM David Heidke , CSM Michael J. Uhlig and others into the conversation for their take.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Yes, send to ALC immediately has been on my last 3 NCOERs. I agree that it's a leadership failure, but I despite my efforts I can't force them into taking action that benefits my career progression. There's a lot more background I can share on that whole topic (yes, I've talked to IG, my senior leadership, etc with no results). If anything my efforts to prevent/correct these leadership failures have just labeled me as an NCO who creates trouble. Since the system is broken and I refuse to comprise my integrity to further my own career, I want to focus on what I can personally do to pursue my goals and if possible prevent this type of situation from happening to other service members.
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On a side note, does any know of any resident military training courses that count for promotion points if taken in a civilian capacity? I'm more than happy spending my off-duty time towards self-development training.
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MSG (Join to see)
Good question. I'd like to know that as well. Best bet(s) (maybe) is to get with your base education office and/or Training NCO to see if they have a good answer on that. If they do give you some good intel, please share with me. Need to beef up my packet for SFC, even though it will be a few yrs before Im eligible to be looked at. But, nothing like the present to get those points needed.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
That's difficult to do while TDY. As far as I'm aware we don't even have a training NCO. It we do it's a collateral duty and chances are they wouldn't know the answer anyways.
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CSM Charles Hayden
SGT Kristin Wiley, If you are not aware of a training NCO at your TDY station, you do indeed have work to do.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
CSM Charles Hayden I work in a Joint Task Force. I know my unit does not have a training NCO. If anything I am the closest thing to a training NCO my task force has had for the past few years. Our higher HQs may have one, but like I said it is likely a collateral duty (and it may not even be assigned to an Army service member), as are many of the soldier support functions in that command. Retention is also a collateral duty, as are many other things. I have asked my J1 about this type of training matters multiple times with no response.
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