Posted on Jun 12, 2016
MSG Operation And Capabilities Development Nco
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I firmly believe every situation is unique, every Soldier is different.

There is a time, place, and reason for everything.

With that said, is there a magical line between "corrective training" and simply-put: bad leadership?

http://www.ncosupport.com/army-counseling-statement/corrective-training-army.html
Posted in these groups: 1938e4f5 Corrective Training
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Responses: 21
PO1 Tony Holland
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While humorous in and of itself public shaming is probably a reach too far --- praise in public, punish in private.
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SFC Andrew Strelczuk
SFC Andrew Strelczuk
>1 y
Private wall to wall counseling session has a time and place, you'll no doubt bennift from being my second. Do you know how to polish a pair of combat boots? The value of old practices is lost on such mundane tasks. You would be surprised. NCO's of the old school actually had great stories to learn from... I was An E-7 for over 1.5 years and Retired now for 9 years.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
theres situation where one is better than the other.... and sometimes that means publicly
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CPO Donald Crisp
CPO Donald Crisp
>1 y
I agree with PO Holland. That said, I feel that there is no need to have the person wear a sign, but rather having the person standing a parade rest then snapping to attention and stating "I forgot my ID card" for a minimal set time, would get the point across with minimal humiliation. With that, I also believe that the leader be present in the vicinity to ensure that the person knows how serious you are about the issue. Then a short (I stress short) counseling session, then move on. Chances are that no one will forget their ID's for a very long time.
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SSG Ronald White
SSG Ronald White
>1 y
I think in todays age of priviledged being wether humilitaed in oublic with a sign or even told to get a hair cut in front of a barbershop will find some horrible disdain and feel that their liberal rights have been violated. Lost ID card as opposed to forgotten ID card is a difference, this is something an enemy can duplicte copy and use against us... importance is high as it is a sensitive item. I wouldnt have used a big sign but something a bit more subtle like have him report to me every hour for a sensitive items check involving both he and I and additional checks when he needed it for chow but I would be inconveniently located so it took some effort to find me but still give him some time to eat, but the SM would have to eat fast. Like the hair cut example, for my commander to call me in about it then report to the other commander should have never happened. If I were your commander I would have told the other commander to check his people otherwise mine wold have to do it for him unless, you were being accused of being a complete ass to the SM in public.. I which case I wouldnt correct you for stating the SM needed a hair cut I would correct you for not being a professional in public and the other commander doesnt have to know that because if his NCOs did their jobs that SM would have had a proper hair cut but while under my command you wont act a fool like that again otherwise I would have to come up with some creative corrective actions for that NCO. I always told my soldiers that I would much rather give them an Ass Chewing than to put things on paper, cause if its on paper then I feel like I am in the process of chaptering them out, taking rank or money and time (I should say recommend as I was a NCO). Its even and I fee fair, if your adult you should be able to handle it, then correct it and it can be dropped and we can move on... I was pretty much a PR$&K if you know what I mean when chewing but, but I hope my juniors knew it came from alot of care because no one else can chew them but me and any problems they had was squashed because I would always go to bat for them... so much so I have civilian housing people call the MPs on me..... If you care you will do what is best for them but only if you get to know them.... I think that is the first step to leadership as for other steps.. well I think I took up too much of all your times already... (difference between fratrinizing and knowing and learning)
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SFC Ralph E Kelley
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Edited >1 y ago
Hmmm, You said "I firmly believe every situation is unique, every Soldier is different."
You learn as you go.
1. Had a soldier who was a truly great soldier - until he got drunk.
2. I had a poor soldier who was fixable.
3. I had a poor soldier that wasn't.
4. I had a NCO that pissed everyone off. But made his soldiers change socks, shave and do sponge baths. Oddly enough everyone was fed, checked for ticks (an expression only unless you've been to Fort Knox) and were never held for GI Parties like every other section. He made sure his troops were up to snuff.
Would mothers and Congress been happy at his methods. I shudder.
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MSG Anthony DiFondi
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I had a Soldier who couldn't make a formation time for the life of him. I was constantly getting chewed out for it. We had a 4 day weekend coming up. I advised the Soldier that we were going to do corrective training for his lack of being prompt for the entire 4 day weekend. I actually gave him the option, go in front of the Commander for an Article 15 or do the corrective training. He chose the corrective training. I had that PFC report to me in the barrack every hour with a different uniform on. First in MOPP 4, then in Class A's, BDUs, PT (winter gear), Class Bs, etc. He did this for the entire 4 day weekend. I allowed him 6 hours of sleep each night and he slept in the barrack. The deal was that he could not miss even one of those formations or he would still go to see the Commander for the Article 15. That PFC made every formation and after that weekend, he appreciated being prompt. I corrected the Soldier and it only cost him his weekend (and my weekend because I had to be there). It worked. Unfortunately, he was fat too and they put him out 6 months later for weight control, but he made formation. I did not treat the corrective training as ridicule or cruelty. He reported on time and then was dismissed. This was done so as to not be monitored by many, so he retained most of his pride. Corrective training can be done, but you have to do it right!
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Is there a line between corrective training & bad leadership?
SGT Josh Suchoski
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All action is derived from motive. If your motive is to help that soldier get right, so that they don't die in theater, then your leadership is good (even if the corrective training sucks). If you are making the soldier suffer unduly, for a laugh or a feeling of power, then your leadership is in question.
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SGM Nathan Thomas
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THe photo that I am looking at in no way is corrective training. That is humiliation, back in the day there were some NCOs that were out of control doing stupid stuff like having a young troop carry a big wrench on a chain for losing a tool and so on. I am assuming this soldier lost their ID card and I would have them learn the different ways lost and or stolen ID cards could be used to do bad things and have them give a class on it. Also, have them at a place where ID cards are required to be shown like the commissary and have them there checking ID cards, which helps the commissary and at the same time impresses upon the troop the importance of ID cards. Just two small examples of corrective actions.
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MSG David Smoak
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Before ANY corrective training or even a counseling statement is written, you should always ask yourself how it will appear to the Commander three levels up. So at the company level imagine the Brigade Commander reading what you are prescribing....because it is very likely to happen! Between social media, family complaints to the post commander, IG, etc your actions will likely be scrutinized by very senior people. Plus if none of that happens and the Soldier is eventually processed for separation, those statements/training will be looked at by very senior people again when it comes to discharge processing.
So as long as your training meets that standard, lead the way NCO!
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SSG Robert Cole
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Some soldiers do require that you go that extra mile. But are you using public humiliation as a training tool or are you just shaming the soldier for your own revenge? Regardless of the method employed, there has to be room for the soldier to achieve a positive public recognition once completed. Then he/she can redeem themselves.
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
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I agree that every situation is unique and every soldier is different. If I were to say that there was a "magical line", it would be anything that involved actual physical harm to the individual. I personally don't care if someone is embarrassed. If it resolves the issue, then they won't have a reason to be embarrassed anymore. They might even have a funny story to tell their friends in the future.

Let's say a soldier thought it'd be smart to wear all black PT clothes during a 0400 run. It would not be appropriate to have him jump in front of every car to test for visibility. But I might strap him with a big and bright road guard vest and have him report in with his squad leader after every mile to ensure we didn't lose him.
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SFC Mpd Ncoic
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Corrective training is a tool to be used in order to correct a deficiency. If someone is habitually late, have them show up to formation 15 minutes early; if someone is showing up to work unshaven, have them carry a razor and shaving cream on their person.....but in no way, shape or form should there be a display of a soldier that would/could bring embarrassment to him or her. That to me is poor leadership and should be nipped in the bud.
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CSM Louis Rothenstein
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Being retired more than 30 years, I may be completely out of date. I can see where the inappropriate application of corrective training might be linked to less than great leadership in some units. I have seen good programs and others not so good. When I was a 1SG, my commanders gave me a lot of leeway in providing corrective training - often in place of the official Article 15. I had floors in the orderly room one could shave in but also we tried to apply something that would improve the soldier's performance. For some, correspondence course enrollment in weak areas as pointed out by the soldier's supervisory chain. For others, it was extra hours assisting the Mess, Motor or Supply Sergeant in duties if the soldier's weak area might be helped. It was a company-wide program. When assigned to the 25th ID in Hawaii a couple of years after Vietnam, MG Brooks, Div CG had a division-wide program called School of the Soldier. When a soldier goofed up or goofed off, he could work it off by attendance at the "School." It incorporated hard physical activity - carrying a ruck from the Division flatlands and double-timing up to the top of Kole-Kole Pass on Saturday mornings. It was tough - it was tougher on soldiers working at other than grunt jobs. The effective part of this school was that it was there for all to see and it did keep up physical readiness levels. There were few repeats. The division-wide program was professionally run and NCO's who ran it worked harder than all those attending. It was preparatory training for several wanting to go to Ranger or SF training. Regarding PT, as a junior NCO I recalled having to run PT for the unit overhead for those in billets while the off-post folks got a pass. These inequities are pretty much gone now but I found that having the oldest guys still participate was important for morale and readiness. For us really old guys - E8-E9's, we had our own PT formation. It was still the Tropic Lightning Mile (5 miles) but at a bit slower pace. General Brooks often trotted along with us with questions like "how are we doing" or "what kind of problems do we have?" In essence, I would say that the success of corrective training is better if it is organization-wide rather than just company or unit level. Regarding counseling statements. The closer to the soldier, the better. Squad members counseled by the squad leader, critiqued by the PSG teaches and trains everyone.
That is what I recall from my army of the last century. CSM Lou Rothenstein
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