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From "The Guardian"
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
It’s rather difficult to compare data from different time periods, according to different methodologies, across different parts of the world, and still come to definitive conclusions.
But now that we have built The Counted, a definitive record of people killed by police in the US this year, at least there is some accountability in America – even if data from the rest of the world is still catching up.
It is undeniable that police in the US often contend with much more violent situations and more heavily armed individuals than police in other developed democratic societies. Still, looking at our data for the US against admittedly less reliable information on police killings elsewhere paints a dramatic portrait, and one that resonates with protests that have gone global since a killing last year in Ferguson, Missouri: the US is not just some outlier in terms of police violence when compared with countries of similar economic and political standing.
America is the outlier – and this is what a crisis looks like.
EDITORIAL COMMENT:- Do you agree with The Guardian's characterization of (roughly) 350 deaths per year (that's roughly 0.000097% of the US population) as a "crisis"?
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
It’s rather difficult to compare data from different time periods, according to different methodologies, across different parts of the world, and still come to definitive conclusions.
But now that we have built The Counted, a definitive record of people killed by police in the US this year, at least there is some accountability in America – even if data from the rest of the world is still catching up.
It is undeniable that police in the US often contend with much more violent situations and more heavily armed individuals than police in other developed democratic societies. Still, looking at our data for the US against admittedly less reliable information on police killings elsewhere paints a dramatic portrait, and one that resonates with protests that have gone global since a killing last year in Ferguson, Missouri: the US is not just some outlier in terms of police violence when compared with countries of similar economic and political standing.
America is the outlier – and this is what a crisis looks like.
EDITORIAL COMMENT:- Do you agree with The Guardian's characterization of (roughly) 350 deaths per year (that's roughly 0.000097% of the US population) as a "crisis"?
Firearms and Guns
Crime
Police
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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Not really. Of course there are many bad examples in the news because it's the flavor of the week/year. With 24/7 news there is an over-saturation of information every time it happens.
Not to excuse the police as there have been too many bad examples of police behavior which only serves to infuriate the communities where it happens. And rightly so in too many situations, but if you break the law you should expect a police response, albeit not bad policing. As long as a few idiot cops and in most situations over zealous media coverage we will continue to see "activates" being baited into burning their own communities to the ground. Just my 2 cents of course.
Not to excuse the police as there have been too many bad examples of police behavior which only serves to infuriate the communities where it happens. And rightly so in too many situations, but if you break the law you should expect a police response, albeit not bad policing. As long as a few idiot cops and in most situations over zealous media coverage we will continue to see "activates" being baited into burning their own communities to the ground. Just my 2 cents of course.
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COL Ted Mc
TSgt David L. - Sergeant; Good point and that's exactly why I asked "Is there a REAL problem ...".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
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So I read this and it is obvious they picked and choose what countries they selected for the shock factor. They left out Central American countries where the police actually murder people all the time.
You have to look at homicides and violent crime for the whole country and then compare it to police shootings. If we only had 1000 murders in the US and the police were killing 500 people then that would be unacceptable. It would mean that the police were much more violent than the country as a whole. It is not the case. To have a real understanding of police killings you would have to compare total population to violent crime to police involved shootings. Heck, Iceland only has 329,740 people in the entire country.
Last you have to look at the source of this information. The statistics are correct, but the way they compare is used to try and sway the reader to believe that the boys in blue get up in the morning wondering who they are going to kill today.
You have to look at homicides and violent crime for the whole country and then compare it to police shootings. If we only had 1000 murders in the US and the police were killing 500 people then that would be unacceptable. It would mean that the police were much more violent than the country as a whole. It is not the case. To have a real understanding of police killings you would have to compare total population to violent crime to police involved shootings. Heck, Iceland only has 329,740 people in the entire country.
Last you have to look at the source of this information. The statistics are correct, but the way they compare is used to try and sway the reader to believe that the boys in blue get up in the morning wondering who they are going to kill today.
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COL Ted Mc
SGT William Howell - Sergeant; Good point and that's exactly why I asked "Is there a REAL problem ...".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
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SGT William Howell
COL Ted Mc Perception is reality. Irresponsible media has been around for the better part of the internet age. As a whole we want the shock value of our media and until that changes the perception will be that the streets are unsafe.
As we tie the hands of the police crime will rise and there will come a breaking point where people will demand that the police do more. Until then we have to ride this out.
As we tie the hands of the police crime will rise and there will come a breaking point where people will demand that the police do more. Until then we have to ride this out.
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COL Ted Mc
SGT William Howell - Sergeant; Yep, "Perception is reality.".
That pretty much says it all.
For some "the ap" IS "the territory".
That pretty much says it all.
For some "the ap" IS "the territory".
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This seems like an apples to oranges comparison. Personally, I believe that LEOs here face more life threatening situations here. We have more guns, more crime. It makes sense. Until we get a lot more information, we can't really draw any conclusions.
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COL Ted Mc
PO3 David Fries - PO; Thank you for your input.
Would it be safe to say that you are of the opinion that it is "the culture/system" which is causing this disparity in numbers?
Would it be safe to say that you are of the opinion that it is "the culture/system" which is causing this disparity in numbers?
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PO3 David Fries
Honestly, I don't know if it's an increase in the problem, or just an increase in the recording of it. Not 10 years ago, not everyone had access to a video recorder on their phone. So without more historical data, it's hard to nail down. It's even harder to nail down a cause. @ted mc
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COL Ted Mc
PO3 David Fries - PO; I think that you're getting close to the answer and that's exactly why I asked "Is there a REAL problem ...".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
The next question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
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I make no apologies for the length of this response because this issue is extremely complicated. And yet, it is easily answered by readily verifiable government statistics, most of which I have provided for the reader. All you past or present LEOs, I'd love your feedback.
I am a retired Law Enforcement Officer. As such, I would like to throw out some fairly representative statistics about police work that bears mightily on this rather "noisy," and current, social issue. You do the math as we go along. BTW, for many years, in different police capacities, I was also saddled with compiling the monthly and annual Uniform Crime Reports to the FBI. So, I have crime stats and associated daily personnel stats coming out the Ying Yang!!!
Today, there are over 1 million LEOs in the US, from FBI and other Feds down through state levels, down through county levels, down to the local levels. One million, just to round things off. Roughly, 70% are on duty on any given day. That's 700,000 suits and uniforms. Here's where it gets into grey areas: an AVERAGE LEO, irrespective of job assignment, can have anywhere from (literally zero), but ON AVERAGE, (remember that were talking Fed or NYC cop down to a one-man, part time, tiny town marshal), ten to forty contacts with the public during his shift, ON AVERAGE. Just eight hours for, ON AVERAGE, about 220-230 days a year. That's Self-Initiated Activity and Calls-for-Service, the latter kind that come from Dispatchers and usually require a written report, or two, or three!!! As a traffic cop, I could easily have 75-80 SIA contacts a day because my main job was traffic law enforcement. Hell, I could get that many, and often did when teamed up for spot survey sites, in three-four hours. Then, I just played around...I had my quotas and then some. NO, WE DIDN'T HAVE QUOTAS!!!
So, back to that one fellow: he now has had, ON AVERAGE, in a given year, approximately 5,750 contacts with the public...from murder, rape, and robbery down through and including checking on the welfare of an elderly person to a benign and friendly contact with a kid on a bike with no helmet.
Remember the ONE MILLION suits and uniforms: well, that means police of all types and statutory levels have nearly SIX BILLION contacts with the public, ON AVERAGE, EVERY YEAR. I'll let that sink in. Average. Truth is, I have no doubt, whatsoever, that that number is closer to TEN BILLION contacts per year...and climbing steadily.
Just so you know my numbers are not made up in my head, in 2008, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported there were approximately 120,000 federal police-types, and approximately 765,000 state, county, and city coppers. That total number has been estimated by the BJS to increase annually by 57,000 LEOs. We are easily over a million today, like I said.
Now, to the issue of police shootings. Out of nearly SIX BILLION public contacts on average every year, the percentage of VIOLENT CRIMES or routine contacts that turn violent or deadly (which, BTW, account for the highest number of on-duty police deaths every year), where guns or other deadly weapons are involved, someone has been or may be killed, someone has been or may be seriously assaulted, hostage situations, fleeing felons, resisting lawful arrests and the like, amount to, ON AVERAGE, 1.44 million violent crimes in 2014, according to the FBI, which, by the way, was a 4% drop over the preceding year. Once again, let's do the math. SIX BILLION contacts a year of which 1.44 MILLION last year were violent...someone was murdered, assaulted, raped, drug crimes, etc. That means of all those annual LEO contacts, only 0.00024% of ALL POLICE CONTACTS were violent. Of all those contacts, police resorted to deadly force (where a perp(s) was actually killed by police) will amount to a total of 930 times, according to BJS estimates for the year 2015, or 1122 deaths by police, if one accepts THE GUARDIAN'S estimates for 2015.
The first calculation would figure police killings in 2015 (based upon 2014 UCR data and a BJS estimate of 2015 numbers), based upon SIX MILLION contacts and 1.44 MILLION violent crimes, at 0 [login to see] % of all SIX BILLION police contacts. Using The Guardian estimates, that ratio is 0 [login to see] of 1% of all police contacts.
Hell, by now I can't remember the original question. But I believe any rational individual should now be able to see how microscopically minute the number of deaths annually committed by police in the performance of their lawful duties. Are there a handful of bad shootings, perhaps. I was not there nor did I investigate a single case. My point is that police in the United States are NOT on a violent ramage, killing innocent people, shooting first and asking questions later.
I did this job for twenty-eight years. Ninety-percent of the time was spent writing reports; ten percent of the time is left to patrolling or performing good old detective legwork. I say to anyone who thinks they know a better way to do the job with 315 BILLION people, apply for a job as a cop and have at it. You will be shocked to learn that the MEDIA loves to make mountains out of ant hills, and that the job has ZERO resemblance to television and movies.
I'm done now. I really think I need my nap.
I am a retired Law Enforcement Officer. As such, I would like to throw out some fairly representative statistics about police work that bears mightily on this rather "noisy," and current, social issue. You do the math as we go along. BTW, for many years, in different police capacities, I was also saddled with compiling the monthly and annual Uniform Crime Reports to the FBI. So, I have crime stats and associated daily personnel stats coming out the Ying Yang!!!
Today, there are over 1 million LEOs in the US, from FBI and other Feds down through state levels, down through county levels, down to the local levels. One million, just to round things off. Roughly, 70% are on duty on any given day. That's 700,000 suits and uniforms. Here's where it gets into grey areas: an AVERAGE LEO, irrespective of job assignment, can have anywhere from (literally zero), but ON AVERAGE, (remember that were talking Fed or NYC cop down to a one-man, part time, tiny town marshal), ten to forty contacts with the public during his shift, ON AVERAGE. Just eight hours for, ON AVERAGE, about 220-230 days a year. That's Self-Initiated Activity and Calls-for-Service, the latter kind that come from Dispatchers and usually require a written report, or two, or three!!! As a traffic cop, I could easily have 75-80 SIA contacts a day because my main job was traffic law enforcement. Hell, I could get that many, and often did when teamed up for spot survey sites, in three-four hours. Then, I just played around...I had my quotas and then some. NO, WE DIDN'T HAVE QUOTAS!!!
So, back to that one fellow: he now has had, ON AVERAGE, in a given year, approximately 5,750 contacts with the public...from murder, rape, and robbery down through and including checking on the welfare of an elderly person to a benign and friendly contact with a kid on a bike with no helmet.
Remember the ONE MILLION suits and uniforms: well, that means police of all types and statutory levels have nearly SIX BILLION contacts with the public, ON AVERAGE, EVERY YEAR. I'll let that sink in. Average. Truth is, I have no doubt, whatsoever, that that number is closer to TEN BILLION contacts per year...and climbing steadily.
Just so you know my numbers are not made up in my head, in 2008, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported there were approximately 120,000 federal police-types, and approximately 765,000 state, county, and city coppers. That total number has been estimated by the BJS to increase annually by 57,000 LEOs. We are easily over a million today, like I said.
Now, to the issue of police shootings. Out of nearly SIX BILLION public contacts on average every year, the percentage of VIOLENT CRIMES or routine contacts that turn violent or deadly (which, BTW, account for the highest number of on-duty police deaths every year), where guns or other deadly weapons are involved, someone has been or may be killed, someone has been or may be seriously assaulted, hostage situations, fleeing felons, resisting lawful arrests and the like, amount to, ON AVERAGE, 1.44 million violent crimes in 2014, according to the FBI, which, by the way, was a 4% drop over the preceding year. Once again, let's do the math. SIX BILLION contacts a year of which 1.44 MILLION last year were violent...someone was murdered, assaulted, raped, drug crimes, etc. That means of all those annual LEO contacts, only 0.00024% of ALL POLICE CONTACTS were violent. Of all those contacts, police resorted to deadly force (where a perp(s) was actually killed by police) will amount to a total of 930 times, according to BJS estimates for the year 2015, or 1122 deaths by police, if one accepts THE GUARDIAN'S estimates for 2015.
The first calculation would figure police killings in 2015 (based upon 2014 UCR data and a BJS estimate of 2015 numbers), based upon SIX MILLION contacts and 1.44 MILLION violent crimes, at 0 [login to see] % of all SIX BILLION police contacts. Using The Guardian estimates, that ratio is 0 [login to see] of 1% of all police contacts.
Hell, by now I can't remember the original question. But I believe any rational individual should now be able to see how microscopically minute the number of deaths annually committed by police in the performance of their lawful duties. Are there a handful of bad shootings, perhaps. I was not there nor did I investigate a single case. My point is that police in the United States are NOT on a violent ramage, killing innocent people, shooting first and asking questions later.
I did this job for twenty-eight years. Ninety-percent of the time was spent writing reports; ten percent of the time is left to patrolling or performing good old detective legwork. I say to anyone who thinks they know a better way to do the job with 315 BILLION people, apply for a job as a cop and have at it. You will be shocked to learn that the MEDIA loves to make mountains out of ant hills, and that the job has ZERO resemblance to television and movies.
I'm done now. I really think I need my nap.
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COL Ted Mc
SCPO (Join to see) Senior Chief; Thank you for the numbers, they roll right into the original question "Is there a REAL problem with police violence?".
Other than the responses from those who believe that there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM at all, your data aligns with my feeling that there is no REAL problem (which isn't to say that there is NO problem).
"The Problem" appears to be two-fold:
[1] there is a (possibly 'desire for profit' fuelled) public perception that the problem is huge and growing; and
[2] there is an increasingly reflexive self-defensive tendency to minimize the actual extent of the problem by denying that there is any police misconduct whatsoever.
Quite simply factor [2] feeds factor [1] and factor [1] feeds factor [2].
Where I am currently living we are seeing the final winding down of the judicial system's dealing with a situation where five police officers (would you believe) "Tazered" someone to death, escaped prosecution for causing the death because of their version of events (it appears that the person whom they killed was from Poland and was in the International arrivals holding area and didn't speak English and was upset because he couldn't get out of the International arrivals area because all of the staff had gone home several hours earlier and locked him inside with no food and water for several hours and no way to contact anyone outside of the International arrivals area [the airport security guards weren't monitoring the cameras because "everyone had left") and didn't immediately comply with the police officer's demands (admittedly they did wait all of three seconds (from the surveillance video) from the time they arrived until they started "shooting"), and are only now being sentenced for Perjury because the testimony that they gave which "justified" their actions was nothing but a bunch of well rehearsed lies. (PS - All four police officers were "suspended with pay" until they were actually convicted - which took roughly eight years.)
It's actions like that which don't really help the reputation of ANY police force.
Other than the responses from those who believe that there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM at all, your data aligns with my feeling that there is no REAL problem (which isn't to say that there is NO problem).
"The Problem" appears to be two-fold:
[1] there is a (possibly 'desire for profit' fuelled) public perception that the problem is huge and growing; and
[2] there is an increasingly reflexive self-defensive tendency to minimize the actual extent of the problem by denying that there is any police misconduct whatsoever.
Quite simply factor [2] feeds factor [1] and factor [1] feeds factor [2].
Where I am currently living we are seeing the final winding down of the judicial system's dealing with a situation where five police officers (would you believe) "Tazered" someone to death, escaped prosecution for causing the death because of their version of events (it appears that the person whom they killed was from Poland and was in the International arrivals holding area and didn't speak English and was upset because he couldn't get out of the International arrivals area because all of the staff had gone home several hours earlier and locked him inside with no food and water for several hours and no way to contact anyone outside of the International arrivals area [the airport security guards weren't monitoring the cameras because "everyone had left") and didn't immediately comply with the police officer's demands (admittedly they did wait all of three seconds (from the surveillance video) from the time they arrived until they started "shooting"), and are only now being sentenced for Perjury because the testimony that they gave which "justified" their actions was nothing but a bunch of well rehearsed lies. (PS - All four police officers were "suspended with pay" until they were actually convicted - which took roughly eight years.)
It's actions like that which don't really help the reputation of ANY police force.
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SCPO (Join to see)
Painting all police with one brush is the biggest problem with society today. Americans are told in a thousand ways not to generalize with a particular group or race. But when it comes to the police, several coppers who tasered a fellow from Poland suddenly taint the reputation of ANY police force. Not right. Not fair. And not justice for the other million out there doing the job right, every day, with just about every contact made with the public.
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This does a very incomplete job of showing the true impact of the numbers. How many police officers are killed in those other countries? There were 3(!) officers who died in the line of duty in the UK in 2014. 2 had heart attacks and 1 was involved in a crash. There were 134 line of duty deaths in the US. There is strict gun control in the UK and most cops don't carry guns.
This article is so one sided it is sad that it is posted here because some young easily influenced person will read it and say "wow a COL wrote and posted this"! "It must be true!" The police in the US are out of control! How about crime is out of control? How about the criminals are out of control? Do LEO have some responsibility in this? Of course! But this article, IMHO seeks to inflame.
This article is so one sided it is sad that it is posted here because some young easily influenced person will read it and say "wow a COL wrote and posted this"! "It must be true!" The police in the US are out of control! How about crime is out of control? How about the criminals are out of control? Do LEO have some responsibility in this? Of course! But this article, IMHO seeks to inflame.
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COL Ted Mc
LTC (Join to see) - Colonel; Have you given any thought to the necessary background postulates and conditions required to make "This article is so one sided it is sad that it is posted here because some young easily influenced person will read it and say "wow a COL wrote and posted this"! "It must be true!"" into an accurate reflection of reality?
The first factor is that your " young easily influenced person" is going to have to be unable to tell the difference between a "statement" and a "question" - and what does that tell you about the educational system in the United States today?
HOWEVER, your first statement is exactly the type of response I was hoping to receive.
Regardless of the crappy analysis and poor research design involved in the original article - THAT IS WHAT IS BEING SOLD AS "!!THE TRUTH!!".
My question is "Is it "!!THE TRUTH!!", or is what is being reported merely sloppy reportage designed to increase revenue (while also ignoring the actual cause of "the problem" because the actual cause of "the problem" is both complex and embarrassing?".
I suspect that your answer is going to be like mine "Option B".
PS - You start your response with the fact that there were three police officers who died while on duty in the UK (none as a result of criminal activity) and link that to the fact that there is a high degree of "firearms ownership restriction" in the UK. One COULD take that to mean that the police don't fear being killed on the job so they are more likely to take an approach which is not "potentially lethal consequence oriented".
The first factor is that your " young easily influenced person" is going to have to be unable to tell the difference between a "statement" and a "question" - and what does that tell you about the educational system in the United States today?
HOWEVER, your first statement is exactly the type of response I was hoping to receive.
Regardless of the crappy analysis and poor research design involved in the original article - THAT IS WHAT IS BEING SOLD AS "!!THE TRUTH!!".
My question is "Is it "!!THE TRUTH!!", or is what is being reported merely sloppy reportage designed to increase revenue (while also ignoring the actual cause of "the problem" because the actual cause of "the problem" is both complex and embarrassing?".
I suspect that your answer is going to be like mine "Option B".
PS - You start your response with the fact that there were three police officers who died while on duty in the UK (none as a result of criminal activity) and link that to the fact that there is a high degree of "firearms ownership restriction" in the UK. One COULD take that to mean that the police don't fear being killed on the job so they are more likely to take an approach which is not "potentially lethal consequence oriented".
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As a complete aside, they don't mention the number of law enforcement officers killed in those countries during the years specified. I have read that murder rates in England and Australia rose sharply after they outlawed guns in those countries. While handgun murders far exceed those committed with a rifle or shotgun in the US, you are four times as likely to be beaten to death with personal weapons than you are to be killed with a rifle or shotgun in the US, according to the FBI crime statistics.
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COL Ted Mc
Cpl Rc Layne - Corporal; Good points.
You might find
Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
and
Australian Guns
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
(especially the "For example, the first entry states that "Homicides are up 3.2%." This statistic is misleading because it reflects only the absolute number of homicides rather than the homicide rate. (A country with a rapidly-growing population, for example, might experience a higher number of crimes even while its overall crime rate decreased.) An examination of statistics from the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) reveals that the overall homicide rate in Australia has changed little over the past decade and actually dipped slightly after the 1997 gun buy-back program." bit interesting.
The REAL question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
PS - The most likely reason why more people are killed by being beaten to death with handguns than are shot by handguns is that the average handgun wielder (please note I did not say "shooter") probably can't hit anything with their handgun at a range that is much longer than arms reach.
You might find
Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
and
Australian Guns
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
(especially the "For example, the first entry states that "Homicides are up 3.2%." This statistic is misleading because it reflects only the absolute number of homicides rather than the homicide rate. (A country with a rapidly-growing population, for example, might experience a higher number of crimes even while its overall crime rate decreased.) An examination of statistics from the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) reveals that the overall homicide rate in Australia has changed little over the past decade and actually dipped slightly after the 1997 gun buy-back program." bit interesting.
The REAL question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
PS - The most likely reason why more people are killed by being beaten to death with handguns than are shot by handguns is that the average handgun wielder (please note I did not say "shooter") probably can't hit anything with their handgun at a range that is much longer than arms reach.
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Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios
We've seen protests all across the country after police officers have been accused of shooting people who aren't armed. Jarrett Maupin, a vocal critic of pol...
There are those who are innocent and get caught doing something that may look like a misjudged case. If the person being asked to stop or questioned by police the best thing to do is just relax and obey, nothing happens in that case. It is a place where cooler heads prevail when talking it out. An officer of he law has very little reaction time, and never know when a suspect is armed. Unless the suspect is already shooting people or wielding any weapon out in the open. The whole thing comes down to control over the situation through either peaceful means talking it out, or use of deadly force. Is it wrong to just empty a clip some would argue and say yes. But the truth is they are trained to fire and empty the clip and if need be reload and continue till target is no longer a threat to the officer or anyone around the area. check out this video and tell me would you do the same or use it faster. https://youtu.be/yfi3Ndh3n-g comply and it may just save your life.
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COL Ted Mc
SPC Americo Garcia - Spec; Thanks for the video.
I don't think that anyone actually believes that the police are trained to simply gun down people based on their age, sex, skin color, or ethnic origin - but I did find the video (and especially the exposure it gave Mr. Maupin to the realities of the world) quite interesting.
Now, the REAL question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
I don't think that anyone actually believes that the police are trained to simply gun down people based on their age, sex, skin color, or ethnic origin - but I did find the video (and especially the exposure it gave Mr. Maupin to the realities of the world) quite interesting.
Now, the REAL question is "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
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MSgt (Join to see)
Fight your battles where you have a better chance of winning. Court cases are won over circumstantial evidence.
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The real problem is actually policy and use of lateral force escalation develop since the Regan get tough on crime and drugs years . policy makers gradually implemented those policy's . Granted some few police officers maybe incapable , but the majority are just following those rules of angement in their PD . it also those not help when the top lawman in the nation makes comments to inflame and decide police and its communities.
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COL Ted Mc
Good observation.
I take it that you are suggesting that "the problem" (if problem there be) is actually a "top down" generated one.
However, that leaves the issue of "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
I take it that you are suggesting that "the problem" (if problem there be) is actually a "top down" generated one.
However, that leaves the issue of "Is the perception that there is a problem the REAL problem?" - think along the lines of "The FACTS are that violent crime rates are declining - the PERCEPTION is that violent crime rates are rising. Why the difference and who benefits?".
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MSgt (Join to see)
Use of Force Policies and Training have helped saved lives on both sides. There have been changes in laws that have changed lives as well.
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COL Ted Mc
MSgt (Join to see) Master Sergeant; Your comment triggered another thought. Is it possible that the "Use of Force Policies and Training" have moved the statistics so that the "middle ground" got cleared out [by cases being moved both up and down the "reaction ladder") so that now all you are seeing is the "bad" cases AND they look worse because there aren't as many nearby types of cases to compare them to?
[Face it "Police Follow Rules And Arrest Suspect Without Violence" simply isn't going to sell any advertising.]
[Face it "Police Follow Rules And Arrest Suspect Without Violence" simply isn't going to sell any advertising.]
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Just skimming some of the responses.
Even if every Police shooting is justified, and the officer did nothing wrong, the numbers in the article are disconcerting.
I've seen similar articles in the past, the number look the same. So maybe on the Police side, maybe on the civilian side, maybe on both sides, something has to change.
Even if every Police shooting is justified, and the officer did nothing wrong, the numbers in the article are disconcerting.
I've seen similar articles in the past, the number look the same. So maybe on the Police side, maybe on the civilian side, maybe on both sides, something has to change.
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Cpl Jeff N.
WO1 (Join to see) . We have a lot of crime in this country. That is a simple fact. We also have a society that seems to think civil behavior is overrated. If a cop shows up, the smart play is to be polite, non confrontational and try to cooperate and resolve the issue. The cop arriving on the scene has very little information when he arrives. He has to figure out what is happening, try to separate possible combatants or apprehend a suspected criminal etc. When folks decide to get aggressive, belligerent, combative, refuse to comply with simple requests, this is what you get.
Imagine had he rolled up, people communicated civilly, followed simple instructions, allowed him time to sort through the stories he was hearing, let back up arrive to help etc.
I am not a cop, nor would I want to be with the types of things I see on television news almost every day. I also know there are cops that abuse authority or might be on a power trip so I don't presume they are always right.
Imagine had he rolled up, people communicated civilly, followed simple instructions, allowed him time to sort through the stories he was hearing, let back up arrive to help etc.
I am not a cop, nor would I want to be with the types of things I see on television news almost every day. I also know there are cops that abuse authority or might be on a power trip so I don't presume they are always right.
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WO1 (Join to see)
Cpl Jeff N.
I agree with everything you said.
Police have a very tough job.
The Police see people on their worse day, even if all people they interact with are good. They are either victims of crimes, innocent people accused, good people who broke the law for whatever reason, and then on top off all of that all the criminals they interact with.
You never know what you are walking into, it could be a corner store to get a sandwich, and you walk in on a robbery, or someone who just really hates cops, you can walk in and everything is fine. You can be at pool party with teenagers having a good time, or rowdy teens destroying property, sometimes it's hard to tell which is which. It's a hard task, but it is the job they volunteered to do. So they, like us get held to a higher standard.
I agree with everything you said.
Police have a very tough job.
The Police see people on their worse day, even if all people they interact with are good. They are either victims of crimes, innocent people accused, good people who broke the law for whatever reason, and then on top off all of that all the criminals they interact with.
You never know what you are walking into, it could be a corner store to get a sandwich, and you walk in on a robbery, or someone who just really hates cops, you can walk in and everything is fine. You can be at pool party with teenagers having a good time, or rowdy teens destroying property, sometimes it's hard to tell which is which. It's a hard task, but it is the job they volunteered to do. So they, like us get held to a higher standard.
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Cpl Jeff N.
I think they are held to a higher standard. The question is, is it an impossible standard. With everyone looking, everyone filming, some trying to instigate trouble and then film the results. Immediate protests for any action some feel are inappropriate, the calling for heads before the facts are even really known. Is that a higher standard or no standard at all?
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COL Ted Mc
Corporal, an excellent observation.
If you don't respect yourself, you can't respect others - and people learn to respect themselves by being treated with respect whilst growing up.
[Think of the military as a bit of a "rebirth" wherein the really good soldiers are created out of the common clay of society by being respected by those whose respect is important to them.]
If you don't respect yourself, you can't respect others - and people learn to respect themselves by being treated with respect whilst growing up.
[Think of the military as a bit of a "rebirth" wherein the really good soldiers are created out of the common clay of society by being respected by those whose respect is important to them.]
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Looking at these statistics in a vacuum is misleading in my opinion. If you're going to use police shootings as a metric to paint a picture of police being out of control and trigger happy, it's only fair that you post violent crime statistics right beside them. If Iceland, Finland, and UK don't have a high rate of violent crime, then guess what? Police shootings will be lower. Why do those countries have a lower rate of violent crime than us? Well, that's another topic entirely.
Now I'm not suggesting that the isolated incidents that we've seen in the last year were justified or not. Every police shooting needs to be investigated and vetted to ensure our law enforcement agencies are applying the proper amount of force to do their jobs safely. Are there incidents of unjustified shootings and excessive force? Yes, and hopefully those individuals are punished.
I'm growing tired of the bashing that police organizations are taking, especially from the media. Some of these guys operate in areas that would rival some combat zones. Violent crime in America may be on a steady decline, but most of these officers face dangers everyday and when it comes down to either your life, the life of your partner, or the life of an innocent bystander, a pull of the trigger may be the only thing stopping a violent offender from causing irreparable harm.
Now I'm not suggesting that the isolated incidents that we've seen in the last year were justified or not. Every police shooting needs to be investigated and vetted to ensure our law enforcement agencies are applying the proper amount of force to do their jobs safely. Are there incidents of unjustified shootings and excessive force? Yes, and hopefully those individuals are punished.
I'm growing tired of the bashing that police organizations are taking, especially from the media. Some of these guys operate in areas that would rival some combat zones. Violent crime in America may be on a steady decline, but most of these officers face dangers everyday and when it comes down to either your life, the life of your partner, or the life of an innocent bystander, a pull of the trigger may be the only thing stopping a violent offender from causing irreparable harm.
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COL Ted Mc
It seems that the police organizations are bringing a bit of the bashing on themselves by their "instinctive" protection of each and every police officer no matter how egregious their conduct.
A police attitude of "Well, you have to look at it from our point of view." completely ignores the facts that [1] the non-police DO NOT have to look at it from the police point of view, and [2] sometimes the police point of view is just plain dumb.
I agree that there is a time and a place for "extreme reactions" - however it seems that SOME police officer feel that that time is ALWAYS. This, however, is a problem that has been with us ever since they invented police.
A police attitude of "Well, you have to look at it from our point of view." completely ignores the facts that [1] the non-police DO NOT have to look at it from the police point of view, and [2] sometimes the police point of view is just plain dumb.
I agree that there is a time and a place for "extreme reactions" - however it seems that SOME police officer feel that that time is ALWAYS. This, however, is a problem that has been with us ever since they invented police.
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SSG (Join to see)
I disagree. I think the media looks for the right situation and blows it up. How many times have we seen a police shooting on TV or the news that was white on white, black on black, or hispanic on hispanic? Not very often. The media only covers a shooting when it crosses a racial boundary because, when twisted properly, can incite anger and emotion to boost ratings.. And if someone is going to make the argument that the majority of police shootings are white on black, go do some research because that is simply not the case.
Also, you reference the police view is just plain dumb. There is not a lot for me to gather from that.
Also, you reference the police view is just plain dumb. There is not a lot for me to gather from that.
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