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Posted on Jan 30, 2020
Is there any regulation that stops my being recalled from paternity leave in order to do a counseling on my legal status?
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I was put on extra duty, had a flag initiated, reduced to E-1, pay taken, and served my punishment (45/45). Platoon SFC said that I would not be getting chaptered out of the army but I still had to do a chapter packet. I asked my brigade legal and they said that the only reason for me to do a chapter packet was if I was getting chaptered out of the army. This is my first Article 15. I am being recalled from paternity leave to do a counseling on my legal status. Is there any regulation that stops this from happening? If there isn't, do I get comped? Also are NCOs legally obligated to tell the truth to their lower enlisted soldiers?
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Posted 6 y ago
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Leave is at the approval and discretion of the commander. That being said, only the commander who authorized your leave is authorized to revoke it, not your PSG. So, are you really being recalled, or did your PSG tell you that you had to come in? In which case your answer could be that you are on leave until the commander revokes it.
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LTC Jason Mackay
Brigade Legal doesn't do legal counsel for you, you need TDS. You are not being chaptered but you still need to do a chapter packet....uhmm no. That's not how that works.
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SPC (Join to see)
The company commander allowed me to return to paternity leave. My AA flag was lifted but an involuntary seperation flag was imposed same day. According to the company commander, this is part of the process. The events are supposed to go involuntary flag imposed>packet goes to BDE legal>Returns to Company Commander where recommendation is made>Battalion Commander gets packet and puts in his recommendation>Gives it to Brigade Commander. I was told by the company commander that this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm being seperated and that this is just part of the process going forward.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) actually, that's mixed up. The Separation flag isn't supposed to be placed until the packet has been accepted at legal, but that's not usually a huge issue.
Sure.... It doesn't always mean you get separated, but it sure as hell means they are trying to. Once a separation packet is accepted by legal, unless the BDE CDR suddenly disagrees with the BN CDR, it is usually approved.
Sure.... It doesn't always mean you get separated, but it sure as hell means they are trying to. Once a separation packet is accepted by legal, unless the BDE CDR suddenly disagrees with the BN CDR, it is usually approved.
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First, I am not a lawyer so contact JAG/BDE Legal.
If you are asking are NCOs obligated to tell you the truth, it all depends. If he says "I have never seen a soldier screw-up as bad as you!" that is probably a lie but it is an acceptable lie.
If you are asking if NCOs are like cops and can lie to get you to confess to an infraction, I honestly don't know. Going back to MP School 45 years ago, I would think that if they are in an investigative capacity they can. Again, I am not a lawyer.
Just wondering... Are you and your wife living on post or near your duty station? If so, the Sergeant could be asking you to come in and get briefed/counseled thinking a short drive and the time for the counseling is not a revocation of your leave.
If you are asking are NCOs obligated to tell you the truth, it all depends. If he says "I have never seen a soldier screw-up as bad as you!" that is probably a lie but it is an acceptable lie.
If you are asking if NCOs are like cops and can lie to get you to confess to an infraction, I honestly don't know. Going back to MP School 45 years ago, I would think that if they are in an investigative capacity they can. Again, I am not a lawyer.
Just wondering... Are you and your wife living on post or near your duty station? If so, the Sergeant could be asking you to come in and get briefed/counseled thinking a short drive and the time for the counseling is not a revocation of your leave.
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Sounds like you are about to be placed on permanent paternity leave. If legal said you are being chaptered then it is probably true. SFCs say things all the time and it was probably true at the time, but stuff changes. They have to bring you back from leave so they can give you legal counselling. Your days in the Army are about to come to an end.
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When you were counseled by the BC, did you sign a counseling or any form that said you were being retained?
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OK, in one sense, JAG is correct. A chapter package means that you can get put out of the Army. On the other side of that, there are regulatory requirements that require that the Commander initiate a chapter package, failing a piss test as one that comes to mind. If that's what the Article 15 was about, then at your rank you would get sent to ASAP and the results of that and your performance in the unit would determine if the Commander pulled that package. There are some others that don't require an Article 15, failing the make weight within one year of coming off the weight program, as an example. The Commander has a lot of discretion when it come finalizing a chapter package.
If you are concerned about the information you are getting, request an open door with the CO. As a piece of advice, the first part of that would be admitting that I screwed up but you want to stay in the Army. Then ask what you options are going to be.
If you are concerned about the information you are getting, request an open door with the CO. As a piece of advice, the first part of that would be admitting that I screwed up but you want to stay in the Army. Then ask what you options are going to be.
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SPC (Join to see)
I haven't busted tape either. It's just FTR 2x, losing name tapes at NTC, not doing a 500 word essay, and disrespect to an NCO.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SPC (Join to see) - Just using that as a bad example. There are a number of situations that require the Commander to initiate a Chapter. My advice still stands, you want to know where you stand, talk to the man that has his hand on your career. I don't know your commander, but I never tried to sugar coat things for those in my command. If I thought they were salvageable, I gave it to them straight about what I expected. If they had FUBAR'ed their career, I would be straight up and tell them to start planning their civilian careers.
Be aware that your Commander will, or a least should, have a conversation with the NCO's in your COC and you PL before sitting down with you.
Be aware that your Commander will, or a least should, have a conversation with the NCO's in your COC and you PL before sitting down with you.
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SPC (Join to see)
CPT Lawrence Cable thank you for your bluntness. I will soon find out within the next hour and 20 minutes.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SPC (Join to see) - Good luck. If you want to stay, tell the CO that and ask what you need to do to accomplish that, then suck it up and drive on.
I had to deal with 2LT's, I had to be blunt and direct :^).
I had to deal with 2LT's, I had to be blunt and direct :^).
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Are you trying/wanting to stay in? If so why fight coming back in to handle the legal aspect.
Sure you could tell him no because you are on leave, shoot you can even turn your phone off and just be back when your leave ends. However this leads to the idea that you no longer care and want to get out.
Now the one thing for leave is, if you do come in. You need to document that, sign in from leave, make and submit a new leave form for the additional day on the back end. If you get called in to handle whatever business it is, you are then working and no longer on leave.
As for the lying aspect. Is it illegal to lie? No i doubt that would hold any weight in and of itself. Should an NCO lie to you, especially about information dealing with your own future? No. Fact of the matter is, some people are shady and are like that, and some people aren't. Its just about dealing with each individual and if you know someone is always lying, then told take it as truth and carry on.
Sure you could tell him no because you are on leave, shoot you can even turn your phone off and just be back when your leave ends. However this leads to the idea that you no longer care and want to get out.
Now the one thing for leave is, if you do come in. You need to document that, sign in from leave, make and submit a new leave form for the additional day on the back end. If you get called in to handle whatever business it is, you are then working and no longer on leave.
As for the lying aspect. Is it illegal to lie? No i doubt that would hold any weight in and of itself. Should an NCO lie to you, especially about information dealing with your own future? No. Fact of the matter is, some people are shady and are like that, and some people aren't. Its just about dealing with each individual and if you know someone is always lying, then told take it as truth and carry on.
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Unless the Reg has changed since my retirement a Chapter packet can be initiated, forwarded up through the chain of command to the approving authority and be approved. However, just as punishment under Art 15 or court-martial can be suspended, your discharge can be suspended.
Also, certain offenses for certain ranks require initiation of an administrative elimination packet. I have no experience in the matter of being brought back off paternity leave. We did have occasions when Soldiers were recalled from regular leave if the seriousness of the charges warranted such action.
Also, certain offenses for certain ranks require initiation of an administrative elimination packet. I have no experience in the matter of being brought back off paternity leave. We did have occasions when Soldiers were recalled from regular leave if the seriousness of the charges warranted such action.
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