Posted on Sep 9, 2014
Is this a fair change to Centralized Promotions?
10.3K
32
42
3
3
0
Here's the scenario: A centralized promotion board is meeting and the members receive a pile of records. In those records are an ERB, and the past 5 evaluations.
Catch: No where on those records or ERB is there any mention of gender or race. Evaluations that have gender describing terms such as "him, her, his" are redacted. This way you are only referencing what that person has accomplished. Thee is no photo in the record.
Once you have determined based on evaluation of performance and potential who you are selecting for promotion will you be advised on their gender, race and see their photo.
Is this fair?
I pose this question to students all the time so based on replies I will add other key points.
Catch: No where on those records or ERB is there any mention of gender or race. Evaluations that have gender describing terms such as "him, her, his" are redacted. This way you are only referencing what that person has accomplished. Thee is no photo in the record.
Once you have determined based on evaluation of performance and potential who you are selecting for promotion will you be advised on their gender, race and see their photo.
Is this fair?
I pose this question to students all the time so based on replies I will add other key points.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 12
I do think that it is fair. By removing gender, race, etc... you remove cognitive bias from the equation of those sitting on the board.
(4)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Agreed, promotion is supposed to be based on performance, potential and nothing else. Your gender, race or anything else not related to what you are asked to do for the Army should have no bearing.
(1)
(0)
I think the photo does play a factor when it comes to the centralized boards. I have read a few AAR's of those boards and year after there are still SSG's that are trying to get promoted that can't even get there photo right, placing awards in the wrong precedence and so on also as there weight increases as does there height on the DA 2166-8. I do believe they should focus more on the performance of the individual. From what I hear they only have 3-5 minutes to look at your records consisting of ERB, photo and evaluations and here recently they can view all your evaluations to include the restricted file. Not sure how true on the restricted portion but I think that the board should be able to look at the total package and not just a portion. Allow them more time to adequatly look at the record instead of thumb through it.
(3)
(0)
Why can't gender and race be displayed? The Army isn't selecting based on this...don't see the big deal.
(2)
(0)
(0)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Ok SGM I will step down off the box. However as stated above you do not have access to anything other than ERB and evaluations.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
I ask that when you get the chance to review Christian vs US. This was a landmark case many years ago but points to the basis of this scenario. While this case was more about forced retirement it still points toward the "goal"
http://www.adversity.net/military_court_97-165C.htm
http://www.adversity.net/military_court_97-165C.htm
(0)
(0)
Good idea. What would you think about adding your 1059s from NCOES since it is an eval from an outside source... 1/1s should have all superiors and etc... A check on reality?
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
As an instructor in this new electronic Army I cannot support all 1059's since students can CTRL+F all of the manuals and find the answers without taking one class. This has been proven.
(1)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
In my ALC we were not authorized to use any resources during our test. It was all from memory... Your branch must have different standards for their NCOES. As far as using 1059s for evaluating NCOs for centralized promotion, they are already considered a factor. However, the weight that the 1059 holds at the centralized board is shallow in comparison to the weight of the NCOERs.
(0)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
NCOES courses are slowly changing back to the way it used to be. A recent test of a newly enlisted soldier just out of AIT showed the result of allowing open book testing in a computerized world. He passed every WLC exam without ever taking a class.
You right on the amount of weight given to 1059's.
You right on the amount of weight given to 1059's.
(0)
(0)
The Army has already found that leaders are not properly conducting Height and Weight to standard. Somewhere in the leadership chain, certain individuals are getting over on their evaluations. Especially on the APFT and HT/WT portion. Inputting numbers that are not factual. It's not that we cannot trust our leaders, however with everything that we do, there should be a process of QA/QC. The 8th Troop leading procedure states Supervise and Refine. Create a process and supervise it. Conduct AAR's to refine the process to make it better. I have not issue with the current process, however I do feel that having the DA photo is very important. As my fellow peer pointed out, there are still leaders out there that cannot put their uniform together properly. This should be addressed way earlier in the chain of command.
(1)
(0)
It's not "perfectly fair" because some evaluations may be inflated for some and realistic for others. On the other hand, there's no perfect system, no way really to "beat" the inflation problem.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Your absolutely right there are many inflated evaluations which speaks to the integrity issues we have in our ranks.
(2)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
I think that you can beat the inflation by developing a written test that covers the MOS and Skill level that you are trying to get promoted to. That combined with your evaluations should give an accurate picture of what kind of Leader you are and will be at the next level. In the cases of the inflated reports the test will not match what is being said in them. To the argument that some people do not test well I say you are in the wrong career if a written test scares you that much.
(1)
(0)
CW5 (Join to see)
SFC King, I think such tests play a big role in Air Force (enlisted) promotions. I like the idea. In fact, years ago we had something similar in the Army - MOS tests - but they didn't stick.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
That is to bad I for one would be happy to see them come back. I have dealt with to many people that outranked me in my career that new nothing about what they were doing when it came to the job so they could not mentor me in my MOS. It has made it a struggle for me in several areas since I had to learn through trial and error rather than someone showing me what right looked like from the start.
(0)
(0)
While the photo may be important in the selection process, I can see where you're going with this SFC (Join to see) have a two part screening process, weed out the non-performers via evaluation first, and then do a second round for appearance out of those who made it. Makes sense to me, the question would be then: Do we not trust our Senior leaders making the selections to make their selections unbiased by racial and sexist discrimination? If the answer is no, then removing the information thats easy to read from being immediately available won't solve the issue. Were one so inclined, one could translate accomplishments into assumed gender.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Trust but verify. It should not be that the powers that be do not trust what is being put infront of them but to keep things impartail you veryify everything. You show trust in them by taking the time to allow their Soldier to take the test and once that is passed then you trust that the Soldier taking the test will represent your recomendation by looking good in their uniform and in their records with as few unexplained discrepancies as possible. The trust is still given but it is on the leader that is recomending to prove that it was well placed by putting only his best before the board.
It is my hope that at least in the Army the promotion process becomes more about how well you do your job and less about how well you look on paper and I feel that they only way to put that in a way that will make it quantifiable for a board is a skill test. By putting a percentage on the knowledge that the leader has about the job that he is competing for would eliminate MOS hopping where guys jump from an MOS that has high points to an MOS with low points. Then you have a leader that knows nothing of the MOS because he skipped up the ranks just because he worked the system so then you have weak leadership in that job. The skill test would require that if you are going to switch MOS's you would have to take the skill tests for the rank that you hold if you can't pass it then you can't switch. Like wise if you can't pass the test for the MOS that you hold then you are not permitted to reenlist this way the Army retains only the Soldiers that want to be here and know what they are doing.
It is my hope that at least in the Army the promotion process becomes more about how well you do your job and less about how well you look on paper and I feel that they only way to put that in a way that will make it quantifiable for a board is a skill test. By putting a percentage on the knowledge that the leader has about the job that he is competing for would eliminate MOS hopping where guys jump from an MOS that has high points to an MOS with low points. Then you have a leader that knows nothing of the MOS because he skipped up the ranks just because he worked the system so then you have weak leadership in that job. The skill test would require that if you are going to switch MOS's you would have to take the skill tests for the rank that you hold if you can't pass it then you can't switch. Like wise if you can't pass the test for the MOS that you hold then you are not permitted to reenlist this way the Army retains only the Soldiers that want to be here and know what they are doing.
(0)
(0)
I think the photo plays a key part in the selection process. Especially when the photo shows an obviously overweight individual yet the DA 705 tells a different story. Not to mention you can see who took time to set up their uniform properly and have it accurately reflect the ERB. Better yet, who took the time to even update their photo rather than use an outdated one.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Not to mention, who is in the right uniform. NCOs wearing the old blue uniform versus the ASU. Also who picked up the current dress uniform versus the greens. How can you express to Soldiers to purchase the new if you aren't leading the way.
(1)
(0)
1SG (Join to see)
I think the photo plays a key part in the selection process. Especially when the photo shows an obviously overweight individual yet the DA 705 tells a different story. Not to mention you can see who took time to set up their uniform properly and have it accurately reflect the ERB. Better yet, who took the time to even update their photo rather than use an outdated one.
(0)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Absolutely the photo plays a big part which is why you should only be allowed to see it after you have decided yes or no based on the aforementioned criteria.
After that when you see the photo you can determine if the image you have developed based on what you read agrees with the photo.
After that when you see the photo you can determine if the image you have developed based on what you read agrees with the photo.
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
But if you have already decided and then the photo becomes a mute point so there is no incentive to make sure that it is correct. The Soldier could sound like Rambo and look like a hobo. I think that the photo should be the first thing that they see and if they look at that and see that you do not look like a Soldier then your packet should not go forward. Apearence is a big part of what we are. We are Soldiers 24/7 and should look the part first and formost and then we will list your qualifications. Am I saying that everyone needs to look like Rambo...no I am saying that regardless of gender or race you should look like you not only want to be here but that you are proud to be here, and a photo can display that if you take the time to make sure that it is correct and done right and not just go through the motions.
(0)
(0)
Add to this removing names (so as to avoid guesswork on sex, race, etc), and you'll have pure lack of bias. If there is NO singularly identifying information and promotion is based solely on the character and capabilities of the individual, then you have a fair and unbiased look at who deserves promotion and who does not.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next

Promotion Board
