Posted on Sep 11, 2015
Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment. What do you think?
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All-male ground combat teams outperformed their mixed-gender counterparts in nearly every capacity during a recent infantry integration test, Marine Corps officials revealed Thursday.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Women in the Military
Marine Corps
Infantry
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 74
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This is a joke. Like it or not women will NEVER measure up. They are women. Try placing women on an NFL or NBA team and see what happens. No one would ever even consider that, but it makes sense to put them in Marine line companies?
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Cpl Brad MarkW
And there you have it - reality. The reality is, you'll never see woman QB in the NFL, nor a Point Guard in the NBA because it's all about winning in those activities. Millions, if not billions are on the line. Why on earth would you risk it all on some PC BS? You wouldn't and the coach or manager would be out the minute they tried to do it.
The difference is private sector where results count and the public sector where perception and political correctness rule, costs and consequences be damned. I've been in federal government service for over 20 years. Believe you me, they will doctor, adjust or manipulate the data anyway they can to show "success" despite evidence to the contrary, right up to the point where it matters and the failure is spectacular (Benghazi). Then watch the finger pointing, CYA memos and even victim blaming as the leadership who thought this up go running for cover.
The difference is private sector where results count and the public sector where perception and political correctness rule, costs and consequences be damned. I've been in federal government service for over 20 years. Believe you me, they will doctor, adjust or manipulate the data anyway they can to show "success" despite evidence to the contrary, right up to the point where it matters and the failure is spectacular (Benghazi). Then watch the finger pointing, CYA memos and even victim blaming as the leadership who thought this up go running for cover.
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The U.S. has not met a determined enemy in the field. I'm pretty sure Ivan's Paratroopers would enjoy WMs in the grunts too!
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Shot less accurately? Are we sure this isn't a fluke of the numbers (i.e. lack of stellar male marksman in the group as well)? I consistently shot high 330s, and *gasp* I don't have a dick (although it may look like I do).
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Cpl Brad MarkW
You're a good shot, no doubt. But I think the results were as you alluded to - taken as a whole. Taken as a whole, the integrated units did not perform as well. So unless you break down the scores M vs F, then we'll never know for sure. I am also sure however, the all male unit had some low scorers too. There are always more Pizza Box's than crosses or rifles. I would hope though, in the interest of fairness, that they assigned the male Marines randomly. Instead, it appears that they did the opposite and if Retired SGTMAJ LeHew is to be believed, then this was not the case. He states bluntly, "This was as stacked as a unit could get with the best Marines to give it a 100 percent
success rate as we possibly could." That doesn't sound to me like a fluke of the numbers was the result of the low scoring.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/14/marine-war-hero-secnav-off-base-women-combat/72251362/
I think the real answer lies somewhere in between - that the women who are good shots and the women who were physically capable aren't always the same. So they did the best they could and the implication here is they chose the best men and women they could for the experiment and when it was all said and done, the integrated did not do as well. Everything else is speculation from people who weren't there.
success rate as we possibly could." That doesn't sound to me like a fluke of the numbers was the result of the low scoring.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/14/marine-war-hero-secnav-off-base-women-combat/72251362/
I think the real answer lies somewhere in between - that the women who are good shots and the women who were physically capable aren't always the same. So they did the best they could and the implication here is they chose the best men and women they could for the experiment and when it was all said and done, the integrated did not do as well. Everything else is speculation from people who weren't there.
Marine war hero: SecNav 'off base' on women in combat
Sgt Maj. Justin LeHew said the SecNav was "off base" to suggest higher caliber female Marines should have been chosen for the integrated task force.
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Sounds like a wasted experiment! come on all men vs. Mixed company! what did they really expect. Like putting a NFL regular team vs. a team with women! really are a wasted experience.
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I wish all these PC liberals would remember that the issue here is combat efficiency not gender equality.
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Follow the example of the Rangers - do not modify requirements and see what happens.
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Wasted Money. Our Country has over 239 Years of Experience and Results, that say Men in Infantry get results, and Win Wars. Jessica Lynch is the Perfect Reason NOT To have Women in Infantry, or Any Combat MOS.
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As I said before women are not build to be men, that's biblical Eve were made from Adam's rib, for the sake of a help me mate. There will be exception's to the rule where a few women will qualify. But, General don't force the whole population of Women Marine's to try and endure Men standards. This whole climate of being political correct for equal opportunity is wrong. If this were not so God would have created all women for combat roles, and created man for a helper's role. Think for a minute, women have the most important role on this earth to procreate new Marines. Men cannot get pregnant and have new Marines. We are the only species on this earth, that do not accept who we are, and what purpose God made us for. Women are nurturers, men can never be equal to women, just by there make up of DNA.
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can we just ask what other country do with this topic? instead of wasting money? Just ask our allies, we can learn a lot of from them than this study!
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