Posted on Feb 6, 2020
My sergeant has been breaking the rules and is trying to blame me? What do I do? What regulations do I need?
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So, I have this sergeant who allowed their Soldier to drive the TMP without a license for months on end. By no license, I don't mean no TMP license, I mean zero license whatsoever. Never taken a drivers test kind of thing. Plus, they had no TMP license and no European license either. Anyway, I have this friend who brought up to this sergeant that this sergeant treats us Soldiers differently and holds certain Soldiers to different standards. When asked for examples, this Soldier mentioned how this sergeant mentioned many times that no one can drive without a valid drivers license to our entire team yet allowed this one particular Soldier to drive without a license. This Soldier is not the only Soldier who does not have a drivers license on the team, but is the only one who frequently drove the TMP. So as a more specific example, my friend mentions a specific day, a day that I had mentioned to this individual about the Soldier without the drivers license driving me to the shoppette. Because this Soldier had already driven so many times, I didn't question it, and because I knew that this sergeant held the keys and would have had to given this Soldier the keys, I thought they had already talked about it. So, I walk up to the car, this Soldier is already sitting in the drivers seat, and I say nothing as I get into the car.
Now, this sergeant is telling me that I will be counseled because I allowed this Soldier to drive me. Honestly, I want her to counsel me so I can write down that I wasn't the one who frequently put the keys of a car into the hands of a Soldier who couldn't drive. But knowing my unit, I need regulation back up. If anyone could help me out and point me in the right direction, that would be great. I know this sergeant is in the wrong, but this sergeant will just get away with it at the end of the day. I would love to write a detailed essay on the matter but I don't know where to start when it comes to back up from regulation and UCMJ. I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you for listening.
Now, this sergeant is telling me that I will be counseled because I allowed this Soldier to drive me. Honestly, I want her to counsel me so I can write down that I wasn't the one who frequently put the keys of a car into the hands of a Soldier who couldn't drive. But knowing my unit, I need regulation back up. If anyone could help me out and point me in the right direction, that would be great. I know this sergeant is in the wrong, but this sergeant will just get away with it at the end of the day. I would love to write a detailed essay on the matter but I don't know where to start when it comes to back up from regulation and UCMJ. I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you for listening.
Driving
Regulation
Army Regulations
UCMJ
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 19
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First, you shouldn't have gotten in a vehicle with an unlicensed driver. If you had gotten hurt, that would be misconduct, and you may not have gotten disability if it led to a discharge. But, more importantly, you know this person is driving with the knowledge of the NCO. This is something that should be brought up to the PSG because the NCO has already been made aware and continues to allow this to continue. If that soldier causes injury to someone else, that soldier's career are in jeopardy, or if they get hurt they would be in the same situation with the line of duty status and VA. You will piss a few people off, but sometimes that is necessary to correct a situation that stands in need of correcting. Think of it this way. On the one hand those who are doing wrong are wrong. But, if you do nothing about it to correct the situation, you are equally as wrong. Do the right thing. This is what personal courage is about. Either you take the Army Values seriously or not.
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1SG (Join to see)
It appears the Soldier is taking the Army Values seriously, and seeking the correct reference(s) to use while demonstrating those values.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
1SG (Join to see) - I agree, just reinforcing the need to take them seriously.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Melvin Brandenburg I understand. I was pointing out impact versus intent, which is difficult to manage in this type of forum.
Your intent was to reinforce Army Values.
Your intent was to reinforce Army Values.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
1SG (Join to see) - Roger. I think non verbal communication is difficult a lot of times because it is easy to misunderstand, or also to misstate how we say things. I think it is a problem for both sides of a conversation in this type of a forum. I do think we would both agree, and it was good to see PFC Ingram was thinking along these lines, that the Army Values are important, and should never be discounted. I also think it is important for NCOs to reinforce them as well. I think back to when I was a private, and there was no discussion of Army Values that I can recall. I think having them would have given me a better Polaris to follow and I would have handled a lot of situations better.
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At your level the focus is on obeying, but the solution lies with your Chain of Command. I doubt the CO or PL would endorse this, or their Sr enlisted. If the Sgt is your next in chain, ask why, then take it above them for the good of the unit. It's all fun and games until the folks with clipboards and statement sheets show up i.e. after an accident or loss of life. Good luck and do the right thing.
Edit - I just googled TMP and have to edit. I thought it was a vehicle, turns out it's Motor Pool. This one is easy. If the dispatcher is so advised, they will start verifying licenses whenever they issue Trip Tickets as required. A subtle nudge from above makes this happen. No license, no drive. The fly in the ointment is if someone senior is ensuring your pal still drives. Find out through NCOs, and I hope that helps. It's like musical chairs, whoever is ordering someone to disobey SOP will be the one left without a chair when JAG arrives after a fatality or accident. You're golden because that's not you.
Edit - I just googled TMP and have to edit. I thought it was a vehicle, turns out it's Motor Pool. This one is easy. If the dispatcher is so advised, they will start verifying licenses whenever they issue Trip Tickets as required. A subtle nudge from above makes this happen. No license, no drive. The fly in the ointment is if someone senior is ensuring your pal still drives. Find out through NCOs, and I hope that helps. It's like musical chairs, whoever is ordering someone to disobey SOP will be the one left without a chair when JAG arrives after a fatality or accident. You're golden because that's not you.
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SPC Matt Harding
This is the best response, certainly, and absolutely true. Although the next course of events after verifying drivers licenses is for someone to pencil whip that person a drivers license, and for the whole process to continue... but C.Y.A. is the most important.
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Chain of Command. Go one step higher than that particular NCO. They have a boss to answer to as well. I’d be willing to bet, their superior has no idea...
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PFC (Join to see)
There was a SFC who was most likely tracking but didn't say anything. I don't feel as though I can trust the chain. I am only looking for text (regulation or UCMJ affiliated) to help write a detailed and backed up retort to the counseling. I have text proof that the sergeant allowed the Soldier to hold the keys, but no written proof that she drove, otherwise I would bring it to the chain. And of course, I don't want to blow up the ordeal. I feel like I am walking a tight rope.
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WO1 (Join to see)
Read the recent comment by the SFC. I’ll say it again, you need to go to the chain of command. The little phrase (immoral, illegal, unethical) falls right here. You don’t need regulatory guidance for this one. PFC (Join to see)
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open door policy - if you feel you cannot trust your first line or section Sergeant, then utilize the open door policy of your 1SG and Commander - it is more then likely that they do not know the SM in question is unlicensed, second - It is your NCO's responsibility to ensure whoever he/she gives vehicle keys to is properly Licensed to operate said vehicle - Which he/she would know via Counseling Packet, and Leaders book, the fact that he/she gave the keys to an unlicensed SM, puts responsibility and accountability on him/her overall - but, you knowingly getting into the vehicle as a passenger puts personal responsibility upon you as well, Get ahead of this, Bring it to your 1SG or Commander, Ask them to check with the Company/Battalion Master driver to see if the SM is licensed, Ask your peers to fill out sworn statements to the claim that this NCO allows this SM to drive the vehicle. For regulatory guidance - see AR 600-55
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As a former MP, I can tell you they are not only breaking the rules, but breaking both state and federal law by allowing an unlicensed driver to operate a vehicle. Your best option is to utilize the open door policy and speak to your 1SGT or CO. Don’t bother trying to write a “retort”, it will accomplish nothing. Get this up the chain of command as soon as possible.
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Ok, a couple of things.
At the time where you got into the vehicle and this soldier drove, did you know he or she was unlicensed at the time?
There should be a logbook where the TMP is signed out each day. This tracks who drove itm has it and such as reports have to be submitted.
I get that you seem to mistrust your CoC but you need to actually let it work and use it. If you don't think your PSG is going to help, step above them to your 1sg and go from there with his or her open door policy.
At the time where you got into the vehicle and this soldier drove, did you know he or she was unlicensed at the time?
There should be a logbook where the TMP is signed out each day. This tracks who drove itm has it and such as reports have to be submitted.
I get that you seem to mistrust your CoC but you need to actually let it work and use it. If you don't think your PSG is going to help, step above them to your 1sg and go from there with his or her open door policy.
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Oi...
So - the NCO is in the wrong. You can go tell on the NCO. That NCO seems like they need a bit of a talking to.
But, they can still counsel you. You shouldn't have gotten in the car.
Also, it's just a counseling statement. Read it. Listen to it. Learn from it. Better yourself. Take this negative experience as a learning experience. It'll be positive that way and you'll be a better person for it.
To add a dickhead comment: Judging by your two disorganized and run-on "paragraphs", I would strongly suggest you don't write a "detailed essay".
So - the NCO is in the wrong. You can go tell on the NCO. That NCO seems like they need a bit of a talking to.
But, they can still counsel you. You shouldn't have gotten in the car.
Also, it's just a counseling statement. Read it. Listen to it. Learn from it. Better yourself. Take this negative experience as a learning experience. It'll be positive that way and you'll be a better person for it.
To add a dickhead comment: Judging by your two disorganized and run-on "paragraphs", I would strongly suggest you don't write a "detailed essay".
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You need to take this to your Chain POST HASTE. This is screaming all kinds of red flags.
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So all I will say is know that they do not possess a license or OF346 for the TMP. Look into AR 600-55 and AR 350-10. All of your answers are in these publications. Your unit master driver also is a good POC for this.
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