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When I was assigned to a very small unit of 3 people, I had a soldier who had more years of service than I did, but was the same grade as me (E-5) but was irritated that I got the waiver to be slotted into the E-7 Position and he was in the E-6 slot. The major reason was he had been a Sergeant for 7 years and REFUSED, not was not able to go to NCOES. I come from the AD mentality that no soldier should be allowed to be promoted prior to attending the appropriate level of education and our Commander was derelict in his duty by allowing him to remain with the rank over 2 years when this soldier refused to go to school.
Needless to say this soldier was pissed off that I was in the higher graded position (I actually attended NCOES prior to my promotion) and made it a point to be unbelievably obnoxious during our deployment because of this. The commander also stated that he did not want to demote him because then he would have to go back to another unit that did not want him.
Since the deployment the commander retired and the soldier is still in the military but has a very poor record of being personable and that is a huge deal in our field of Public Affairs, but is very proficient in his job.
If you were in this situation, either as a leader or unit member how would you have handled this situation?
Needless to say this soldier was pissed off that I was in the higher graded position (I actually attended NCOES prior to my promotion) and made it a point to be unbelievably obnoxious during our deployment because of this. The commander also stated that he did not want to demote him because then he would have to go back to another unit that did not want him.
Since the deployment the commander retired and the soldier is still in the military but has a very poor record of being personable and that is a huge deal in our field of Public Affairs, but is very proficient in his job.
If you were in this situation, either as a leader or unit member how would you have handled this situation?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 11
I would have counseled him regarding his refusal to attend NCOES, recommended the commander counsel him as non-recommended for promotion, and pushed for a bar to re-enlistment.
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SGT(P) Jennifer Brande
Thank you so much MSG because that is exactly what I had recommended to my commander but his response was that he would have have to send him back to the co-located public affairs unit that didn't want to have him due to his poor attitude and that he was less than an effective leader. I just wanted to make sure that what I had recommended to him was the right move.
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Favoritism destroys organization by promoting incompetent individuals to position they shouldn't be occupying. It is a cancer that destroys an organization slowly.
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I was an E-5 for over a year before I could attend WLC. Mainly due to the fact that we were deployed so much that it was impractical to send before promotion. While I was there as an E-5 there were two E-6's who hadn't been able to attend for the exact same reason. So to say you cannot be promoted because you don't have the school should be on a case by case basis not the rule.
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SGT Nel Despradel
Correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge from E4 to E5 none school is required. Neither to be E6. After that is your career on your hands if you don't want to go to school by choice may be the end of your military career. Also, have you talked to that soldier or had you try to get him some help? A lot of people after long time out school are scared to go back some may need professional help to overcome that. I don't think that a person in a right state of mind, will reject a promotion or better themselves and their families.
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SSG John Bacon
It may not be mandatory SGT Nel Despradel but it will help in a board to have the appropriate NCOES school completed. Also the current WLC program was designed for PFC and SPC to complete prior to their promotion boards.
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SGT Christopher Hamman
That's a very good point in the original comment, SSG Bacon! In the reserve components, that circumstance doesn't happen very often, if at all. This is yet another circumstance where we just have it much easier than regular army soldiers.
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SSG (Join to see)
See MILPER 13-275 (https://www.hrc.army.mil/milper/13-275)
NCOES requirements by grade:
SSD-1 for E-5;
WLC/SSD-2 for E-6;
ALC/SSD-3 for E-7;
SLC/SSD-4 for E-8
Also check AR 600-8-19
1–28. Noncommissioned Officer Education System requirement for promotion and conditional promotion
(1) All RA and USAR CPLs or SPCs must complete SSD level 1 before attaining eligibility for recommendation to SGT
(2) All ARNG or ARNGUS CPL or SPC must complete SSD level 1 before attaining eligibility for promotion against a valid promotion vacancy.
(3) All SGTs (all components) must be graduates of the Warrior Leader Course (WLC) before attaining eligibility
for recommendation to SSG. Effective 1 February 2015, SGTs (all components) must complete SSD level 2 before attaining eligibility for recommendation to SSG.
(4) All SSG (all components) must complete SSD level 3 before attaining eligibility for promotion consideration to SFC.
(5) All SFC (all components) must complete SSD level 4 before attaining eligibility for promotion consideration to MSG.
NCOES requirements by grade:
SSD-1 for E-5;
WLC/SSD-2 for E-6;
ALC/SSD-3 for E-7;
SLC/SSD-4 for E-8
Also check AR 600-8-19
1–28. Noncommissioned Officer Education System requirement for promotion and conditional promotion
(1) All RA and USAR CPLs or SPCs must complete SSD level 1 before attaining eligibility for recommendation to SGT
(2) All ARNG or ARNGUS CPL or SPC must complete SSD level 1 before attaining eligibility for promotion against a valid promotion vacancy.
(3) All SGTs (all components) must be graduates of the Warrior Leader Course (WLC) before attaining eligibility
for recommendation to SSG. Effective 1 February 2015, SGTs (all components) must complete SSD level 2 before attaining eligibility for recommendation to SSG.
(4) All SSG (all components) must complete SSD level 3 before attaining eligibility for promotion consideration to SFC.
(5) All SFC (all components) must complete SSD level 4 before attaining eligibility for promotion consideration to MSG.
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Well let's see, there has been a lot of acceptance, and a lot of smack talk on this. First, to the SSG that said TIS/TIG only matter..... It doesn't ONLY MATTER, it is a tool, and a tracking mechanism, so that said moving on, if a Soldier refuses to train, go to the appropriate schooling, additional schooling.... BUH BYE! It doesn't matter how "good" they are at their job in the big picture they are holding back other Soldiers by stagnating in that position, to boot they have refused to train any leadership that allows them to get away with that is complicit in the down turn of our precious military, we do not except mediocrity, we teach, coach, and mentor so that we can build stronger, both mentally and physically our subordinates. But we are also charged with thinning the herd, the service is not for everyone. Now I get what you were doing with a kind of peer pressure thing..... BUT, if the result that was starting to show its self was even more animosity, then it was lost on the individual and a waste of time, doing nothing but adding to the tension, and suppression of the unit. BLUF..... The Soldier should have been counseled, barred from reenlistment, at a minimum, if the counseling did not reach its mark or have any kind of effect then a reduction board we be called for and possible chapter. It was time for that Soldier to go when he/she refused to train, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR MOS IS/WAS.
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I would have put him in for a reduction board and/or bar to reenlistment after he was properly counseled and given opportunity to reform. Sound like a reservist and as much as I appreciate him volunteering, standards must be maintained. We will have many good AD Soldiers leaving our ranks (the fat has been cut and we are into the lean meat now) that could replace him so they can still work towards a retirement. I hope your leadership has not given you more trouble than necessary, because it's always easier to "check-down" than "up" in rank. Best of luck.
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I don't see why he got "pissed". He did this to himself. Refusing to advance in career is a huge no go and you're commander can initiate papers on that alone based on timelines.
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TIG/TIS only matters if a person meets all of the remaining requirements. My last unit I was in, I was the PSG, I had two other SSG in my platoon. There was no power struggle though, there was none of us that had gone to SLC and my Mortar Section Sergeant did not actually go to ALC until after I got him. If the other SSG that I had been serving under in my previous company had come over, who had recently attended SLC then I would have turned over the platoon to him. It is not about how much TIS/TIG you have until the playing ground is EQUAL. In your scenario, the playing ground was not. You were promotable, WITH ALC completed. My old unit got to the point, that if a person refused to go to ALC, then they would be demoted. It was not optional. WLC, ALC, SLC are NOT "optional" schools. Airborne, Air Assault, Master Gunner etc are optional schools. .
If your soldier was not working well with you, then counseling him is definitely in order. These counselings do NOT stay in his packet though, they go to the 1SG. You make it known to your 1SG what the problem is. You cannot fight the fight when you are both the same rank. The fact that you are promotable, and I assume his was too, does not mean that gives anyone the reason to be a jackass. It sets the wrong example to the troops. Small unit or not. You have to work in conjunction with your 1SG to make this right. Worse comes to worse he has to go to another unit.
If your soldier was not working well with you, then counseling him is definitely in order. These counselings do NOT stay in his packet though, they go to the 1SG. You make it known to your 1SG what the problem is. You cannot fight the fight when you are both the same rank. The fact that you are promotable, and I assume his was too, does not mean that gives anyone the reason to be a jackass. It sets the wrong example to the troops. Small unit or not. You have to work in conjunction with your 1SG to make this right. Worse comes to worse he has to go to another unit.
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SGT(P) Jennifer Brande
Thanks for your response Robert, you definitely made me feel as though I did do the right thing. For a bit more clarification we were a 3 pax unit myself who being in the E7 position was the 1SG, the soldier in question and and our commander, a major so that was another angle which made it difficult but thankfully I still made it work
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SFC (Join to see)
Here is thing, there is ALWAYS a senior that you can look to in a situation like this. While I have not personally been in a Special Unit like this, I have been in companies where our 1SG was a SFC (non-promotable), when I was sent from a company where our 1SG was a non promotable SFC. I was sent to be a PSG in that company and we only had ONE SFC as one of our PSGs at the time. By the time all was said and done I was the only SSG as a PSG, everything had pretty much gone back to normal (minus me, or maybe I had done good enough to not get fired. Which was my main goal as a SSG PSG). Anyway, you see everyone deals with odd situations like this, we ALL have to think outside the box, you as a future SSG, MUST do that. It sounds like you are and that is good. If this is a normal thing, then you must adapt and overcome, if it is just a deployment thing, then you adapt, and when you get back to the normal way of life then you go back to doing things the Army way. Sounds like a Contracting NCO thing? Anyway, good job dealing with a difficult situation, you will have many more in your career and if this is your worst...good job there too.
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SGT Christopher Hamman
I don't think there's any question that you did the right thing, SGT Brande. There may be, or may have been, several different actions that would be appropriate in that situation, but, hey, I think you're golden here.
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If the soldier refused to go to NCOES when provided the opportunity to get promoted, that would be an indication that they are not ready to advance to the next level. Just because you have been sitting as an E5 and get mad when someone of the same rank with LESS time in service passes over you is your own undoing. I was an E4 for over 3 years with TIS and TIG, but there were no open slots for me for my MOS. Others were getting promoted ahead of me that I started my career with and had attended WLC before them. It was frustrating, but I waited and was eventually promoted while on deployment. Your career is what you make it.....if you don't attend the leadership school necessary to ft promoted, you don't deserve he rank. It is not a title just given out, it is earned.
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It sounds to me that the right person got the job. Knowedge is a very important commodity in the military but attitude is everything. Someone who is good at their job can still be a cancer to the unit if their attitude stinks, and an NCO with a poor attitude can tear apart a whole team. When I was at Campbell I was a SPC with a year time in grade. While technically not a new soldier my time and grade did start over when I got out of the army and came back in. I was made team leader for my squad but when we got a new specialist with more time in service I nearly lost my job. Then the time came for us to both prove ourselves at an FTX at Ft Lewis, WA. The entire platoon was ready to kill this kid and though he grasped the concepts of our new platoon mission, he lacked the attitude and personality to get the troops to fall behind him. I kept my job and he got moved to a different platoon. My point is time in grade has little meaning when it comes to preparedness for the job. He may have been in longer, but he clearly isn't ready to lead.
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