Posted on Jan 6, 2014
No Hat, No Salute Areas...suggestion, mandatory, order, convenience? Which is it?
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OK I almost got into it today but I exercised great restraint (you'd all be proud). Im in a course right now at a building where there apparently is a no hat, salute zone right before the entrance in a breeze way.<div>Now there is a sign that is about 12x12 inches 1 ft off the ground behind a bush that says this, and that is all it says. That is not the entrance I came in, but it is the exit (where there is no sign posted). </div><div>So Im walking out the door on the way to my car. I put my hat on. There's about 10 soldiers in PT's walking by me on the way in with their caps on. Behind them is an SFC Drill. Mind you there's a sever cold front coming in and the wind is blowing 20+mph with a windchill of about 19 right now.</div><div>He says to me "hey sergeant, this is a no hat no salute zone." I'm range walking because I'm freezing and I say "ok, thank you." And continue to move out briskly. (not removing my hat)</div><div>Then from about 20 meters away he enters knife hand mode. "HEY SGT! THATS NOT A SUGGESTION, THATS AN ORDER" Now normally I engage in a conversation at this point but because I was freezing I took off the hat walked 5 more steps and put it on when I was back in real Army zone.</div><div>So my question is, in these areas is this an order? I thought that these areas existed because they are high traffic areas where many officers are in and out and don't need to be saluting 300 times in and out of the building. More of a convince thing. I had no idea this was MANDATORY and that I MUST remove my head gear in these areas.</div><div>So what's the deal?</div>
NCOES
Saluting
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 37
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No hat/No salute zones are designated by MACOM commanders IAW AR 600-25. Those areas are primarily for safety: flight lines, railyards, etc. Within those boundaries wearing a hat is violation of a lawful order but there are some exceptions which I'm not sure are institutional or regulatory. My experience is solely in the bounds of the flight line where a watch/fleece cap is authorized in cold wx and an organizational ball cap (issued IAW AR 670-1) is also authorized.
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The way my company enforces 'no hat, no salute' is it's reserved for our FMS and motor pool. It's a working environment so each soldier dresses to their comfort level. Personally, I wear my PC to keep the sun from my eyes, but not everyone does. If and when my PL comes around, salutes are generally not exchanged as we would have to stop what we are doing (turning wrenches, ground guiding) to render courtesies. But I've never 'officially' seen any memorandums or explicitly been told anything about 'no hat, no salute' policy.
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I called this disorderly conduct and threatening you with his hand. This what I call it as an MP but I know that is not the intent.
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Perhaps there should be a sign as you exit the building as well. That way there is no confusion. Beware the "Do not enter" sign posted below the "exit" sign.
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These "zones" are constructed because of laziness. It probably started as a no salute zone and morphed into a no hat/no salute zone. I would inquire to the building occupants who installed the sign and the reason behind its purpose.
Saluting is a sign of respect and a long standing tradition. Saying you don't have to do it is just preposterous. We have no headgear zones in aviation but there is a purpose behind it. Zones like this are built because some building occupant sees saluting as a chore and wants a sign to allow them to walk to their car or around the building with no headgear.
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1SG (Join to see)
1SG, Not all "no hat, no salute" areas are created out of laziness, most are created out of practicality. While I can not speak for the area at Fort Jackson that the original post is referencing, I can tell you that I have seen numerous other areas where a hand salute would be impractical to say the very least. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the center courtyard at the Pentagon, no hat, no salute area, constantly populated by both officer and enlisted members of every branch. A simple sign of respect in saying good morning, or good afternoon is sufficient, provided people are moving slow enough to acknowledge you.
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SGM (Join to see)
An area that is heavily populated by senior ranking officials like the Pentagon is a no brainer and understandable. Of course there is only one pentagon so I can see why it would exist. To build a no hat/no salute zone outside of a building that isn't populated with the top brass of the military branches is laziness and should be re-evaluated.
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Looking up saluting on the web, I saw mention of "when in area's that it is not appropriate." but nothing that specific stated there are "no salute" area's.
this though was an interesting read about saluting.
ArmyStudyGuide.com provide extensive information about About Saluting (ArmyStudyGuide.com)
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
While at Kandahar Airfield (KAF), the base SOP was that if you didn't have stars (or foreign rank insignia equivalent) on your uniform, you were not getting a salute. So it CAN be situationally altered by local commander.
Also, ArmyStudyGuide is not an authoritative source on pretty much anything. According to their board study guide on Army History, they still claim that the Vietnam War is the longest conflict in US History.
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If I'm reading this correctly, then yes it is an order.
If the order came from a senior ranking NCO or Officer.
A one way sign is not always a one way sign if the MP instruct you to go the other way.
Even in traffic during construction the one who holds the flag to instruct traffic is like a peace officer. The signs means nothing if they are going to be over ruled by someone of authority.
If a sign says go straight a head, and an NCO such as yourself SSG Burns instruct an E-5 Not to go straight, but to return back. but that E-5 fails and goes straight. BOOM!!!
He gets blown up. Why? because he didn't follow a lawful order, an order that came from you.
So if the Drill SGT out ranked you, he gave you just what he said a lawful order.
The same applies to you with your subordinates. If you tell them something joking around, it can be considered as a lawful order, even though no such regulations exists to back up that order you gave.
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SFC (Join to see)
I think maybe you should understand why there is a "no hat, no salute" area at the SSI to begin with. I encountered the same thing when I was at the AMEDD Center & School at Fort Sam Houston. The bottom line is that like the AMEDDC&S, the SSI is a place that teaches junior officers attending AG and Finance Basic Officer Leadership Course (BOLC) and Captain's Career Course , and is not just the building that houses the Recruiting & Retention School. Reminder: According to Customs and Courtesies, not only is an enlisted servicemember of ANY branch required to render a salute when covered and outdoors but the Officer receiving the salute is required to return it!! The "No Hat, No Salute" policy keeps you from having to render a salute to every one of the hundreds of Officers also housed in that building as they traffic in and out of the SSI just like you do. NOW, that being said, you mentioned you didn't see the sense as you were rushing briskly toward your car. If you saw an officer and they saw you and you were not under cover and out of range would you a) pick up the pace to avoid saluting or b) do what you are supposed to do and render the appropriate Customs and Courtesies because we are NCOs and we are supposed to enforce standards? So if the policy is "no hat no salute" it is: a) of benefit to you, b) of benefit to the student officers AND c) a policy, that we as NCOs should not gripe about complying with! It isn't even a hard right over an easy wrong Sergeant, it's just an easy right, HOOAH?! Oh and BTW PS. Drill Sergeants and MPs who are wearing their pistol belts are considered "under arms" and not required to remove their covers indoors and under cover. Hope this helped. SFC Butcher, Instructor, Recruiting and Retention School
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SSG Robert Burns
I've been at that building for a week now, and I have crossed paths with one officer that I would have had to salute if it had not been the polciy not to. It is obviously not needed.
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SSG Laureano Pabon
My personal thoughts:
SSG Burns, I think you acted accordingly based on the given circumstances at the time. Which is something that is to me admirable. What I can say is that you never got in trouble and I hope that some day soon I get to see your rank go from SSG to SFC. :)
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