Posted on Jul 27, 2018
Once a soldier knowingly takes an APFT for Record, can it be removed?
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By reg, Traditional national guard soldiers are only required to take MINIMUM one APFT a year. My Battalion takes two for record, one every six months. No one knows where this policy came from or can find anything in writing stating we have to. It’s commanders discretion and this is the way it’s always been.
I have a soldier. Notorious for failing PT. Hasn’t passed for three years straight until I became the training NCO. I trained with him for five months and the day of his ETS (FEB 2018), he finally passes for record. Hallelujah!! He re enlists, finally gets pinned as an E-5. Well deserved.
Come May 2018, three months later- we have our unit record APFT. He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing.
He volunteers for ADOS, which in my BN is a privilege. You must be in good unit standing with no flagging actions to be placed on orders.
I tell him he can’t go on orders Bc he’s not passing. He said, “I spoke to the readiness NCO and she said the last APFT doesn’t count.” I go into the system and he’s not flagged anymore. Come to find out, the readiness NCO removes the flag and APFT completely. Reason being- he already took his one APFT in February so there’s no reason why he should have taken it in May. I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC.
Who’s in the wrong here?
Yes- he didn’t have a 8 month gap between records but the only reason why he took two was Bc he knowingly took two. Feb was to stay in service (he was already three years with no passing score) and May was to get back in track with the unit.
i understand doing what’s best for the soldiers interest, but I feel as if my integrity is being compromised. He got pinned as an NCO and that’s not something I believe should be taken lightly. Need advice!
I have a soldier. Notorious for failing PT. Hasn’t passed for three years straight until I became the training NCO. I trained with him for five months and the day of his ETS (FEB 2018), he finally passes for record. Hallelujah!! He re enlists, finally gets pinned as an E-5. Well deserved.
Come May 2018, three months later- we have our unit record APFT. He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing.
He volunteers for ADOS, which in my BN is a privilege. You must be in good unit standing with no flagging actions to be placed on orders.
I tell him he can’t go on orders Bc he’s not passing. He said, “I spoke to the readiness NCO and she said the last APFT doesn’t count.” I go into the system and he’s not flagged anymore. Come to find out, the readiness NCO removes the flag and APFT completely. Reason being- he already took his one APFT in February so there’s no reason why he should have taken it in May. I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC.
Who’s in the wrong here?
Yes- he didn’t have a 8 month gap between records but the only reason why he took two was Bc he knowingly took two. Feb was to stay in service (he was already three years with no passing score) and May was to get back in track with the unit.
i understand doing what’s best for the soldiers interest, but I feel as if my integrity is being compromised. He got pinned as an NCO and that’s not something I believe should be taken lightly. Need advice!
APFT
PFT
00F: Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
PRT (Army)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
"He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing."
" I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC."
If its not recorded correctly on the 705, it never happened as far as an after action.
" I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC."
If its not recorded correctly on the 705, it never happened as far as an after action.
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A great way to lower morale and trust in a unit is to have a perception of not enforcing standards. I can almost guarantee that other Soldiers have seen the fact that this NCO has recently, and historically, failed the APFT and is now being considered for the privilege of ADOS. What kind of message does this send to all the Soldiers and NCOs that are putting in the effort to maintain their physical fitness? I understand that even achieving minimum standards is still enough to get by in the army, but not everyone deserves a trophy.
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I would bring the issue to the CoC for their awareness and action. I see so many wrong things regarding this situation:
1. Flag removal. Only the commander can remove a flag! Who did it?
2. APFT administration. Like previously stated if not properly documented it didn’t happened! Only his DA705? Many or all of the others DA705? Only this APFT or is there a failure in the unit’s APFT administration process?
3. Note: there is no minimum of record APFT. As a commander I could have my unit do a monthly record APFT if desired. Not a smart decision.
4. Most important in my opinion: the subject NCO has no pride on been a Soldier/ NCO based on his behavior.
1. Flag removal. Only the commander can remove a flag! Who did it?
2. APFT administration. Like previously stated if not properly documented it didn’t happened! Only his DA705? Many or all of the others DA705? Only this APFT or is there a failure in the unit’s APFT administration process?
3. Note: there is no minimum of record APFT. As a commander I could have my unit do a monthly record APFT if desired. Not a smart decision.
4. Most important in my opinion: the subject NCO has no pride on been a Soldier/ NCO based on his behavior.
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MAJ Javier Rivera
You got it! You can ask your CoC dor a record test but not the other way around. And the notification of a for record APFT needs to be done prior to the test. I did it at least 72 hours ahead... some folks liked to have a very light meal the night prior.
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CSM (Join to see)
I want to bring up what I view as a common misconception here about timelines. There is indeed a minimum time between record APFTs - 4 months. No record test administered prior to that is valid.
Commanders can administer APFTs whenever they want - but those tests cannot be used for record unless 4 months have elapsed since the last record test. The oft-quoted line, "Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the APFT is for record" is cherry-picked from AR 350-1, and the very next sentence is, "A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR." For National Guard, I believe it is 8 months minimum between tests.
We've had to vet this through our local Division IG on multiple occasions, because this problem regularly comes up with schools packets - Soldiers almost always need record APFTs administered within a certain time frame of the course start date, so there is a CONSIDERABLE amount of gray-area paperwork hustles that occur in order to get schools packets done in time. But if those Soldiers fail those APFTs when their last record was less than 4 months ago? Cannot flag them.
Commanders can administer APFTs whenever they want - but those tests cannot be used for record unless 4 months have elapsed since the last record test. The oft-quoted line, "Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the APFT is for record" is cherry-picked from AR 350-1, and the very next sentence is, "A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR." For National Guard, I believe it is 8 months minimum between tests.
We've had to vet this through our local Division IG on multiple occasions, because this problem regularly comes up with schools packets - Soldiers almost always need record APFTs administered within a certain time frame of the course start date, so there is a CONSIDERABLE amount of gray-area paperwork hustles that occur in order to get schools packets done in time. But if those Soldiers fail those APFTs when their last record was less than 4 months ago? Cannot flag them.
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MAJ Javier Rivera
CSM (Join to see) Thanks for the clarification. I always kept it 2/year IOT for the sake of simplicity!
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