Posted on Jul 27, 2018
Once a soldier knowingly takes an APFT for Record, can it be removed?
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By reg, Traditional national guard soldiers are only required to take MINIMUM one APFT a year. My Battalion takes two for record, one every six months. No one knows where this policy came from or can find anything in writing stating we have to. It’s commanders discretion and this is the way it’s always been.
I have a soldier. Notorious for failing PT. Hasn’t passed for three years straight until I became the training NCO. I trained with him for five months and the day of his ETS (FEB 2018), he finally passes for record. Hallelujah!! He re enlists, finally gets pinned as an E-5. Well deserved.
Come May 2018, three months later- we have our unit record APFT. He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing.
He volunteers for ADOS, which in my BN is a privilege. You must be in good unit standing with no flagging actions to be placed on orders.
I tell him he can’t go on orders Bc he’s not passing. He said, “I spoke to the readiness NCO and she said the last APFT doesn’t count.” I go into the system and he’s not flagged anymore. Come to find out, the readiness NCO removes the flag and APFT completely. Reason being- he already took his one APFT in February so there’s no reason why he should have taken it in May. I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC.
Who’s in the wrong here?
Yes- he didn’t have a 8 month gap between records but the only reason why he took two was Bc he knowingly took two. Feb was to stay in service (he was already three years with no passing score) and May was to get back in track with the unit.
i understand doing what’s best for the soldiers interest, but I feel as if my integrity is being compromised. He got pinned as an NCO and that’s not something I believe should be taken lightly. Need advice!
I have a soldier. Notorious for failing PT. Hasn’t passed for three years straight until I became the training NCO. I trained with him for five months and the day of his ETS (FEB 2018), he finally passes for record. Hallelujah!! He re enlists, finally gets pinned as an E-5. Well deserved.
Come May 2018, three months later- we have our unit record APFT. He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing.
He volunteers for ADOS, which in my BN is a privilege. You must be in good unit standing with no flagging actions to be placed on orders.
I tell him he can’t go on orders Bc he’s not passing. He said, “I spoke to the readiness NCO and she said the last APFT doesn’t count.” I go into the system and he’s not flagged anymore. Come to find out, the readiness NCO removes the flag and APFT completely. Reason being- he already took his one APFT in February so there’s no reason why he should have taken it in May. I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC.
Who’s in the wrong here?
Yes- he didn’t have a 8 month gap between records but the only reason why he took two was Bc he knowingly took two. Feb was to stay in service (he was already three years with no passing score) and May was to get back in track with the unit.
i understand doing what’s best for the soldiers interest, but I feel as if my integrity is being compromised. He got pinned as an NCO and that’s not something I believe should be taken lightly. Need advice!
APFT
PFT
00F: Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
PRT (Army)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
"He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing."
" I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC."
If its not recorded correctly on the 705, it never happened as far as an after action.
" I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC."
If its not recorded correctly on the 705, it never happened as far as an after action.
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A great way to lower morale and trust in a unit is to have a perception of not enforcing standards. I can almost guarantee that other Soldiers have seen the fact that this NCO has recently, and historically, failed the APFT and is now being considered for the privilege of ADOS. What kind of message does this send to all the Soldiers and NCOs that are putting in the effort to maintain their physical fitness? I understand that even achieving minimum standards is still enough to get by in the army, but not everyone deserves a trophy.
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I would bring the issue to the CoC for their awareness and action. I see so many wrong things regarding this situation:
1. Flag removal. Only the commander can remove a flag! Who did it?
2. APFT administration. Like previously stated if not properly documented it didn’t happened! Only his DA705? Many or all of the others DA705? Only this APFT or is there a failure in the unit’s APFT administration process?
3. Note: there is no minimum of record APFT. As a commander I could have my unit do a monthly record APFT if desired. Not a smart decision.
4. Most important in my opinion: the subject NCO has no pride on been a Soldier/ NCO based on his behavior.
1. Flag removal. Only the commander can remove a flag! Who did it?
2. APFT administration. Like previously stated if not properly documented it didn’t happened! Only his DA705? Many or all of the others DA705? Only this APFT or is there a failure in the unit’s APFT administration process?
3. Note: there is no minimum of record APFT. As a commander I could have my unit do a monthly record APFT if desired. Not a smart decision.
4. Most important in my opinion: the subject NCO has no pride on been a Soldier/ NCO based on his behavior.
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MAJ Javier Rivera
You got it! You can ask your CoC dor a record test but not the other way around. And the notification of a for record APFT needs to be done prior to the test. I did it at least 72 hours ahead... some folks liked to have a very light meal the night prior.
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CSM (Join to see)
I want to bring up what I view as a common misconception here about timelines. There is indeed a minimum time between record APFTs - 4 months. No record test administered prior to that is valid.
Commanders can administer APFTs whenever they want - but those tests cannot be used for record unless 4 months have elapsed since the last record test. The oft-quoted line, "Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the APFT is for record" is cherry-picked from AR 350-1, and the very next sentence is, "A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR." For National Guard, I believe it is 8 months minimum between tests.
We've had to vet this through our local Division IG on multiple occasions, because this problem regularly comes up with schools packets - Soldiers almost always need record APFTs administered within a certain time frame of the course start date, so there is a CONSIDERABLE amount of gray-area paperwork hustles that occur in order to get schools packets done in time. But if those Soldiers fail those APFTs when their last record was less than 4 months ago? Cannot flag them.
Commanders can administer APFTs whenever they want - but those tests cannot be used for record unless 4 months have elapsed since the last record test. The oft-quoted line, "Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the APFT is for record" is cherry-picked from AR 350-1, and the very next sentence is, "A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR." For National Guard, I believe it is 8 months minimum between tests.
We've had to vet this through our local Division IG on multiple occasions, because this problem regularly comes up with schools packets - Soldiers almost always need record APFTs administered within a certain time frame of the course start date, so there is a CONSIDERABLE amount of gray-area paperwork hustles that occur in order to get schools packets done in time. But if those Soldiers fail those APFTs when their last record was less than 4 months ago? Cannot flag them.
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MAJ Javier Rivera
CSM (Join to see) Thanks for the clarification. I always kept it 2/year IOT for the sake of simplicity!
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Follow the regulations. Number one, you do not have the documentation supporting a record. Two, it appears that he took the test outside of the guidelines for record performance. If these are the facts he has no record.
As for unit integrity, I may be wrong but there will be an electronic record of the change in the system regarding the code. If that is the case then you CO should have signed a release for the bar. If so the Commander supports the theory that the Soldier should not have taken a for record, end of story. I know that the Guard and Reserves are different in some aspects, I doubt they are with Bars. Thank you for your service.
As for unit integrity, I may be wrong but there will be an electronic record of the change in the system regarding the code. If that is the case then you CO should have signed a release for the bar. If so the Commander supports the theory that the Soldier should not have taken a for record, end of story. I know that the Guard and Reserves are different in some aspects, I doubt they are with Bars. Thank you for your service.
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Check AR 350-1.
k. Soldiers must take a record APFT every 6 months for RA and AGR Soldiers, and annually for all other USAR and ARNG Soldiers. If a Soldier fails a record APFT, commanders may allow Soldiers to retake the test as soon as the Soldier and commander feel the Soldier is ready to test (not to exceed 90 days). A repetitive APFT failure occurs when a Soldier fails a record test, is provided adequate time and assistance to condition (not to exceed 90 days), and fails again.
k. Soldiers must take a record APFT every 6 months for RA and AGR Soldiers, and annually for all other USAR and ARNG Soldiers. If a Soldier fails a record APFT, commanders may allow Soldiers to retake the test as soon as the Soldier and commander feel the Soldier is ready to test (not to exceed 90 days). A repetitive APFT failure occurs when a Soldier fails a record test, is provided adequate time and assistance to condition (not to exceed 90 days), and fails again.
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Add on to original Post:
My COC decided to NOT include the 705 for this specific Soldier as it did not abide by the 8 month rule. That, and documentation was done incorrectly- not designated as record or diagnostic and not signed off by NCOIC.
Now - on to another issue.
Unit is scheduled to take 2 RECORD APFT's per year. Soldier's are within 8-14 month window in accordance with reg. Soldier's already has a passing APFT on file for the test, but take a second Record APFT- Fails.
Do you flag or not flag?
I've been inputting EVERY RECORD 705 into the system, pass or not. That way everything is documented and you can see trending. Now- my COC is telling me "DO NOT input the fails from the second testing who initially passed the first time". Basically to with hold information (supposedly to the Soldiers benefit).
But, for those who did pass- I can input in system. I don't even understand how this is fair?? So I'm picking and choosing which tests "count"?
I feel like my integrity is being compromised here. Pass or not, PT is an individual effort. We have Record APFT's the same month every year so it's not like they couldn't adequately prepare.
How do I approach this situation if my COC is all in agreeance, but i'm the only one taking a stance against it?
My COC decided to NOT include the 705 for this specific Soldier as it did not abide by the 8 month rule. That, and documentation was done incorrectly- not designated as record or diagnostic and not signed off by NCOIC.
Now - on to another issue.
Unit is scheduled to take 2 RECORD APFT's per year. Soldier's are within 8-14 month window in accordance with reg. Soldier's already has a passing APFT on file for the test, but take a second Record APFT- Fails.
Do you flag or not flag?
I've been inputting EVERY RECORD 705 into the system, pass or not. That way everything is documented and you can see trending. Now- my COC is telling me "DO NOT input the fails from the second testing who initially passed the first time". Basically to with hold information (supposedly to the Soldiers benefit).
But, for those who did pass- I can input in system. I don't even understand how this is fair?? So I'm picking and choosing which tests "count"?
I feel like my integrity is being compromised here. Pass or not, PT is an individual effort. We have Record APFT's the same month every year so it's not like they couldn't adequately prepare.
How do I approach this situation if my COC is all in agreeance, but i'm the only one taking a stance against it?
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OK, 1, Your Cdr can not do less than what regs state, but he can ask for more than the regs (they are guidelines after all. 2. The SM knew that there would be 2 AFPT in every year 3. The readiness NCO also knew that and evidently has blown off their responsibilities. 4. I believe (opinion) that this should be taken to the CDR or S3 for remedy ASAP. The Readiness NCO should be recommended for counseling to the CDR. This is so wrong, and the readiness NCO took the easy way out.
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If the minimum amount of time between records had not elapsed, can't be another record.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Never got in to ANG regs, so I dont know..Is there a ANG reg that states a SM is forbidden from being given a APFT unless XX months have passed? If yes, can you cite it please?
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LCDR Robert S.
SGM Erik Marquez - AR 350-1 is applicable to ANG, and states: "A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests with no more than 14 months between record tests for other RC Soldiers (less IRR)."
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SGM Erik Marquez
LCDR Robert S. - Sir thanks, but not quite.
This is thread is about an Army national Guard SM, so it would be Min 4 months.. Unless it is a re test
"A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR. The 4
month rule does not apply to Soldiers that must make-up a record test or re-
testing for an APFT failure.
"And even with Reserve folks, the 8 month does not apply if it is a retest or make up test...
A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests with no more than 14 months between record tests for other RC Soldiers (less IRR). The 8 month rule does not apply to Soldiers that require makeup testing or re-testing for an APFT failure. The intent is for all RA and AGR Soldiers to take a record APFT every 6 months"
This is thread is about an Army national Guard SM, so it would be Min 4 months.. Unless it is a re test
"A minimum of 4 months will separate record tests for RA and AGR. The 4
month rule does not apply to Soldiers that must make-up a record test or re-
testing for an APFT failure.
"And even with Reserve folks, the 8 month does not apply if it is a retest or make up test...
A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests with no more than 14 months between record tests for other RC Soldiers (less IRR). The 8 month rule does not apply to Soldiers that require makeup testing or re-testing for an APFT failure. The intent is for all RA and AGR Soldiers to take a record APFT every 6 months"
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LCDR Robert S.
SGM Erik Marquez - You're misreading the regulation/misinterpreting the situation in two ways. The first is that AGR is Active Guard and Reserve, who are technically reserve or NG soldiers, but who serve full time in support of the Guard or Reserve. This Soldier is National Guard and is definitely not AGR, because if he was he wouldn't be applying for active duty orders, since he's already serving full time. Thus the minimum is 8 months, not 4. The distinction for 4/8 months is full-time/part-time. Full time Soldiers (no matter whether Active, Reserve, or National Guard) take a record APFT twice a year (with a minimum of 4 months between tests), while part time soldiers (Reserve and National Guard, since there isn't a way for a Regular Army Soldier to be part time) take a record APFT once a year (with a minimum of 8 months between tests).
The second way you're misinterpreting it is that the non-applicability of the 8 month rule (or the 4 month rule for active component Soldiers) means that if someone fails, they can be re-tested in less than 8 months to show that they are back within standards. When they pass the re-test, the 8 month clock starts, because the intent is for AR and ANG Soldiers to take (and pass) the APFT annually.
The second way you're misinterpreting it is that the non-applicability of the 8 month rule (or the 4 month rule for active component Soldiers) means that if someone fails, they can be re-tested in less than 8 months to show that they are back within standards. When they pass the re-test, the 8 month clock starts, because the intent is for AR and ANG Soldiers to take (and pass) the APFT annually.
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He shouldn't been discharged years ago. With that being said, the Army is all about the paper trail. If his most recent APFT is not documented properly then it holds no water.
Personally, you are in the right here. But the AR will say otherwise. Also, it's up to a unit commander how often you take an APFT. It's only required once per year for NG. That's the minimum. If the commander wants to do more he is entitled to. And if the Soldier is told it is for record, it is for record. Everything checks out but the paperwork. That NCOIC and retention NCO blew it. Yet another Soldier exploits the system due to a lack of attention to detail by a Leader...
Your moral compass is pointed in the absolute right direction. If the service was made up of NCOs like you, all would be right.
Personally, you are in the right here. But the AR will say otherwise. Also, it's up to a unit commander how often you take an APFT. It's only required once per year for NG. That's the minimum. If the commander wants to do more he is entitled to. And if the Soldier is told it is for record, it is for record. Everything checks out but the paperwork. That NCOIC and retention NCO blew it. Yet another Soldier exploits the system due to a lack of attention to detail by a Leader...
Your moral compass is pointed in the absolute right direction. If the service was made up of NCOs like you, all would be right.
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AR 350-1 states: Soldiers in RC troop program units (TPUs) will take the APFT at least once each calendar year. A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests if only one test is given, with no more than 14 months between record tests.
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