Posted on Mar 9, 2015
Planet Fitness, Transgenders, and changes in Army Policy
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Let's start this off with a quote from our Constitution that we have sworn to uphold and defend:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Many of you have likely heard the story in the news about a woman being kicked out of Planet Fitness for being judgmental due to a transgender woman (pre-OP) was using the female locker room.
Davenport, a transgender activist, states in the article that the female in question had a legitimate argument as did the transgender woman. She also suggested that having individual changing rooms would go a long way to rectifying this issue, and also hopefully to cut down on possible sexual assaults from males attempting to abuse this situation.
As someone who is Libertarian minded I want all people to be treated equally and I see an unequal situation being portrayed here. If Planet Fitness has in their established policy that anyone should be respected for their transgender identity, then they have a requirement to make those people feel welcome, and also those members who may not accept it.
I have seen the arguments on each side that say things in the realm of "This tranny shit is unnatural" and "This person was born a man and is a man period" as well as "This is where things are going and people just need to tolerate it or get the hell out".
Neither of these approaches is right in my opinion and we should be trying to find methods that work with all peoples and all views, but intolerance breeds more intolerance. This is obviously an issue that will be brought forth within the military, whether for the good or ill of readiness or the mission. How do we deal with this properly?
http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
Posted in these groups: 
Readiness
Transgender
Readiness Transgender
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 40
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You were closest to the mark in your opening. No STATE shall make a law. The gym is a private business, not a state actor. They can do whatever the hell they want - until congress abuses the commerce clause againg they way they passed civil rights legislation (which I agree with the results not the method). I can say that I fall in the line of thought that transgenderism is a mental disorder. I do not believe you have a fundamental right to choose your genetalia.
That being said, as private company it's simple, let them have their policy. I'll never do business with them because I stand in principle. I don't want the government telling them to do or not to do what they did. I'd rather the market speak. Private vs public.
That being said, as private company it's simple, let them have their policy. I'll never do business with them because I stand in principle. I don't want the government telling them to do or not to do what they did. I'd rather the market speak. Private vs public.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I agree with you in the case of Fitness Connection, but how do we handle this as military leaders if/when the Sec Def decides that we have to integrate TG members into our ranks. How do we deal with situations like the above?
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SSG (Join to see)
Above our pay grade sir. The answer is going to be more locker rooms/showers etc. this isn't desegregation.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
SSG (Join to see) I agree with the concept, but logistically and monetarily that can be difficult. I am not interested in losing my career over someone's hurt feelings. With the way the courts support these changes now, we may be in sticky situations in the future. Just trying to get ahead of something as a leader.
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SSG (Join to see)
There's not a good answer. This is one that for me I don't care how you self identify. If you've got boy parts you're a boy. Don't like it, I'm protecting my female subordinates. I'm willing to fall in my sword on principle.
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It should have been simple... Woman: Sir, why are you in the woman's locker room? Transgender: I am transgender and identify as female. Woman: Oh, I didn't realize that.
The end.
The end.
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SSG (Join to see)
I believe that if the rules are being properly enforced, they will also serve as a preventative measure. I believe that is enough to make such events exceedingly rare. Think about the world of legal hurt that would be imposed if someone claimed to be transgender and was then shown to have been lying so that he could invade the privacy of women and harass them. I can't imagine this ever being that much of an issue.
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SSG (Join to see)
It seems simple to me, all you do is treat people the way you would want to be treated. That's not always easy, however it seems simple enough to me.
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SSG (Join to see)
1LT Scott D. If the man identifies as a woman, then she's a woman even though she looks like a man. There are plenty of people who are uncomfortable in locker rooms even if someone who doesn't appear to be the opposite sex is in there... if they can't get used to it they should find some place that has private changing areas. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution... other than private changing areas.
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SSG (Join to see)
1LT Scott D. I can't prevent someone from feeling discomfort, however in some cases I can prevent them from being discriminated against. I'm more inclined to worry about the things I can change than the ones I can't.
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We had this same situation (transgender, pre and post-op) in my office (civilian job, post Army life). How our company handles it is the best I've heard so far. Transgenders must "live" as their new gender for a lengthy time period prior to surgery as part of the process. During that pre-op/living as a woman period, this individual was required to use the guest (individual) latrine facilities by the security guard's desk at the entrance to the building, instead of using the larger facilities on each floor. As physically still a man, the ladies room was not appropriate, but dressed/living as a woman made the mens room unappropriate as well. Once the surgery was complete, she was then open to use any of the ladies rooms in the building. Yes, this person complained about the inconvenience of going to the first floor every time to use the facilities, but every other woman in building was respected by not allowing a still physically male into the ladies room. A letter was sent out to every woman in the building explaining the situation, both pre and post surgery, so everyone would be aware, and hopefully more tolerant.
On a side note, she didn't elect to have the surgery to shave down her Adam's apple - its still a bit unsettling to see a tall woman with a big Adam's apple standing next to you at the sink when you're washing your hands... it takes some getting used to.
On a side note, she didn't elect to have the surgery to shave down her Adam's apple - its still a bit unsettling to see a tall woman with a big Adam's apple standing next to you at the sink when you're washing your hands... it takes some getting used to.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
Glad to see that a solution that was fair for everyone could be reached. Thanks for sharing.
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This will be very blunt and to the point. If I'm in the locker room, showering, etc.....The LAST thing I want is to see a wang. I don't care if you're "in the process". DO YOU STILL HAVE A THIRD LEG???? Yes? Then take your behind in with the other guys. Plain and simple. This person should have to make arrangements to go back to their own house and shower until their "transformation" is complete. smh
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If you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. You're always going to have that fear of having an EO complaint whether you're being tolerant or not. You can't make special accommodations to a certain group as a leader. You wouldn't treat female soldiers differently than a male soldier would you? Now, you may approach situations differently depending on the person, but not necessarily because of their gender and that's ok. People respond to differently to different leadership styles. Regardless of what you believe about "transgender" people, a soldier is a soldier. As an Army, it looks like we're just going to have to tolerate it. Treat your soldiers equally and there should be no issues.
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I definitely am not saying "you" are boring, but this transgender, same sex marriage, military acceptance, is getting old to me. I'm old school, so my beliefs should be obvious, and besides, we have no input to what the government will or will not do inless it is on the ballot. I am married to "born that way" woman, raised my children, one left to go, and have tesigned myself not to argue a point where there are no winners, only hope is to break even.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I support your opinion on that. With the Sec Def considering making this an open integration however, current leaders may find themselves in the thick of messes this creates. For us currently serving, this is a real possibility that we need to figure out to how to approach because with the way things are going this is a likely scenario.
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Not to be mean or anything but please show me a real inscciodent that a cis male pretended to be a transgender female Just to be a creep. I have never heard of this happening Because it has never happened. Cis people just use this excuse because they are afraid of the unknown.
Now you can start bashing at my opinion. But please don't use the "l'm librail (spelling)" because I am not one
Now you can start bashing at my opinion. But please don't use the "l'm librail (spelling)" because I am not one
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I have not said that this has happened, however sexual predators by nature are criminals and many can be crafty. If a precedence is set such as this it could lead to an issue in the future.
Planet Fitness would find itself in a rough legal section if this were to happen.
Planet Fitness would find itself in a rough legal section if this were to happen.
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SN (Join to see)
So you would rather have the transgender community suffer just for trying to be happy, comfortable, and safe Just because some mental guy in a dress might want to "get off" in the female areas.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
SN (Join to see)
My issue with that is that a policy could be abused to the benefit of those who wish harm on others. Do we set a new precedence that opens up all manner of potential exploitation issues in the realm of SHARP for nearly everyone woman in the force to make what is about 2% of the population happy?
My issue with that is that a policy could be abused to the benefit of those who wish harm on others. Do we set a new precedence that opens up all manner of potential exploitation issues in the realm of SHARP for nearly everyone woman in the force to make what is about 2% of the population happy?
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Curious, related, but a little off topic / trolling.
Assume this individual that is genetically male but believes they are female were in the military. Based on the planet fitness incident and if we were to agree with their model, we should view this person as female since that is how they identify, and therefore be allowed to use a women's facility regardless of appearance or genetics.........now ....should their PT test be based on the male standards since they are physically a male, or the female standards since they identify with being female?....
Ready...set...Troll!!!!
Assume this individual that is genetically male but believes they are female were in the military. Based on the planet fitness incident and if we were to agree with their model, we should view this person as female since that is how they identify, and therefore be allowed to use a women's facility regardless of appearance or genetics.........now ....should their PT test be based on the male standards since they are physically a male, or the female standards since they identify with being female?....
Ready...set...Troll!!!!
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MSgt Bj Jones
How about boot camp with open bays and open showers? If a man identifies as a woman, and gets to take female fitness tests and a woman identifies as a man and would have to meet male standards-how will that go over? My guess is it won't go very well. What may end up happening is a One Size Fits All Standard for fitness tests.
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Suspended Profile
MSgt Bj Jones I have long lamented the fact that there are different PT standards for men and women. The original PT standards set by military, police and fire agencies were not to exclude women - they were to maintain a minimum level of physical proficiency to carry out the mission.
As a Navy guy, my feelings are expressed in the following potential scenario: A large male sailor is down, at the bottom of a ladder. A female sailor sees him down, and says, "I'd like to rescue you, but I don't have the upper body strength." After all, who cares if you can run 1.5 miles on a 400 ft long ship.
It's about strength and endurance to carry out the mission. Yes, this scenario is simplistic, ignorant and perhaps offensive, but it gets the message across.
There DOES need to be one physical fitness standard in the military, gender transparent. If you can get the mission done, great. If not - time to find a new job...
As a Navy guy, my feelings are expressed in the following potential scenario: A large male sailor is down, at the bottom of a ladder. A female sailor sees him down, and says, "I'd like to rescue you, but I don't have the upper body strength." After all, who cares if you can run 1.5 miles on a 400 ft long ship.
It's about strength and endurance to carry out the mission. Yes, this scenario is simplistic, ignorant and perhaps offensive, but it gets the message across.
There DOES need to be one physical fitness standard in the military, gender transparent. If you can get the mission done, great. If not - time to find a new job...
MSgt Bj Jones
LCDR Jaron Matlow There is also the issue of size amongst same gender. For instance, how is a man who is 5'4" and weighs 130lbs supposed to lift and carry a guy 6'4" and weighing 245lbs? It also gets me the run standards are the same regardless of size. A person over 6 feet tall can cover more distance than a guy who's a short 5'5". When I enlisted in 1990 Delayed Enlistment Program, there were actually height standards for men and women. Later, the standards were lowered as I saw women 4'8 in boot camp. While there are some things women having a harder time with, there are also some things women can do that men have difficulty with. For example, women tend to have a hard time with male pushups. I've gotten certificates and coined for pushup competitions in one of my units, but doing them was extremely painful. It felt like my gut was being slashed with a knife. The most I ever did was 59 in one minute, which isn't much. Situps (crunches) tend to be easier for women. I've heard some men complain how the situps or crunches was painful on their lower backs. Then there is also the argument that women are the ones suffering the monthly miseries and giving birth. There was also a time when pregnancy was instant discharge. Now, you see women having babies and not married as well as being given 'breastfeeding waivers'. I worked as a certified Care Nurse (Nursing Assistant) prior to joining the Air Force. I had gotten accustomed to lifting people much heavier than me on a daily basis. That tendency to lift and carry heavy objects carried over. One of my fellow Airmen used to chide me by saying, "Don't you be carrying that heavy stuff around, girl. You're in your childbearing years!" Guys would often see me carrying stuff and instantly want to help lighten my load. That girl i your scenario did it all wrong. Instead of admitting to a weakness, she should've said, "I'll get someone, and we'll both come help you."
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MAJ (Join to see)
Starting to go sideways a little I think.....yes there are physical differences between a male and female and we can debate that all day. What the issue is a male that wants to be treated as a female and a female that wants to be treated as a male. This is not about equal opportunity because the answer is they should be treated exactly the same given all other things equal. I think what we need to ask and which has been already asked by other people in this thread are things like.
1. Should a male that identifies as a female be billeted / shower with genetic females...should he be graded on a female or male PT scale, should he (she or w/e) wear female military uniforms. Are they considered male or female when statistics are compiled by the army. Is his spouse (if it's male) his/her husband (if woman) his wife? If he is a male that is married to a male, is it a gay marriage or considered opposite sex marriage in the military, how would that effect his benefits? If he's male and married to a female, since he identifies as a female, would that be same sex marriage or since he's genetically a male, would it be his wife and receive all the benefits that opposite sex marriage receives? Same questions apply but the other way around for a TG female but includes if the TG female that thinks she's a male, gets pregnant...does she/he get maternity leave because males usually don't....etc etc.
1. Should a male that identifies as a female be billeted / shower with genetic females...should he be graded on a female or male PT scale, should he (she or w/e) wear female military uniforms. Are they considered male or female when statistics are compiled by the army. Is his spouse (if it's male) his/her husband (if woman) his wife? If he is a male that is married to a male, is it a gay marriage or considered opposite sex marriage in the military, how would that effect his benefits? If he's male and married to a female, since he identifies as a female, would that be same sex marriage or since he's genetically a male, would it be his wife and receive all the benefits that opposite sex marriage receives? Same questions apply but the other way around for a TG female but includes if the TG female that thinks she's a male, gets pregnant...does she/he get maternity leave because males usually don't....etc etc.
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The problem I see with the restroom issue is that not all transgenders are attracted to the opposite sex. Even male to female pre-op TG can be attracted to females. The argument of a "lesbian trapped in a man's body" is a notable argument among some TGs. There needs to be a line drawn with regard to facility usage. There was a separation for a reason.
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SPC Jonathan Sellers
How do you mention someone in a comment? I'm trying to just type their name, and RP doesn't do it like facebook does
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Cpl (Join to see)
I personally would not want to serve with transgenders who's only purpose in serving is to make a political statement while using the military as an avenue for elective surgery and hormone therapy. I'm sure the current crop of bureaucrats and politicians are going to force it on the military; problems will arise and they will have to be addressed. Serve as an equal, follow the standards or don't serve at all. i don't believe special privileges should be given to anyone regardless of gender identity, race or other.
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I think these issues become even more complicated when one considers a person can end up on a sexual predator list in 12 states for urinating in public, and for engaging in (consensual adult sex) prostitution in 6 states. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/08/mapped_sex_offender_registry_laws_on_statutory_rape_public_urination_and.html
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CPT Zachary Brooks
So if you use the bathroom you identify with, is the bathroom now public? Can you become a sexual predator for relieving yourself in a bathroom?
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SSG Gerhard S.
I don't pretend to know the answer to that. Likewise I don't know how urinating in public ends up with a Sexual Predator registration either. My point was simply to illustrate how muddy the waters can become. This is particularly so when the apparent trend is that the sensitivities of the trans-gender, or of the person identifying as the other sex seem to trump the sensitivities of others in the community. I recall reading an article regarding the planet fitness issue a few weeks back in the Detroit paper. The article was totally one sided, and excoriated the sensitivities of the complaining woman, while championing the sensitivities of the trans-gender person. I'm not suggesting it should be one way, or the other, only, that the sensitivities of one side should be equally as important as those of the other. As to the best solution to this issue, I'm not that sensitive to the issue, as I believe in individual rights, and abhor the idea of assigning special rights, or privileges to any person, or group of persons. Unfortunately this perspective doesn't take into account the sensitivities others may have.
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