Posted on Nov 3, 2016
TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
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Posted in these groups: Us medals AwardsImgres Deployment
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Responses: 11
SSG Trevor S.
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I had three MSM's downgraded to ARCOM before my MSM was approved for my retirement award. Two were re-writes. The one that wasn't a re-write means more to me than an MSM. The CW2 that wrote it fought it through to the BDE Commander and caused him to have to sign the downgrade. IMO that took fortitude and set a good example on how to treat Soldiers and NCO's under you.
My point is, an award isn't just promotion points. Sometimes it tells a greater story.
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SFC (Other / Not listed)
SFC (Join to see)
9 y
Something I think that some officers forget that if an award is downgraded, the DA Form 638 recommending the higher award goes into your OMPF as well as the DA Form 4980-whatever for the downgraded award you received and can be viewed by centralized boards. Will it make a difference on getting promoted or not? Maybe, maybe not. I also see it from the point of view of the downgrading officer. Sending up an award that they know is going to be downgraded or has a chance to be downgraded just adds to the work load of the approving authority.
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SSG Trevor S.
SSG Trevor S.
9 y
SFC (Join to see) - If the downgrading officer has that viewpoint, maybe they re-evaluate their own view of their position.
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MGySgt James Forward
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Not how we do in the Corps, majority of the time YOU have no idea that you have been recommended for an award. The whole purpose of letting the person know that he is recommended is so if the award gets down graded there is no ass pain. So I would say suck it up, wear what you got with pride and keep charging! Asking for an upgrade on an award looks real bitchy to me. We don't do the promotion point deal for awards in this gun club. Semper Fi.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
9 y
You usually don't know in the Army either until you get the award if everything is running as it should. I've fought tooth and nail and done office calls to push for guys, but I can't imagine asking for an upgrade on my own awards. Would fear being seen as an ungrateful glory hound.
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
Obviously you guys did not understand the issue or I didn't explain it very well. I was awarded an MSM but I was told it was downgraded. I am not requesting my award be upgraded. I was trying to get it down-graded to what I was told it was going to be. My BN fought for weeks with the COS to get the MSM. I'm happy with any award I get and I'd never ask to have an award upgraded because I think I deserve it. I just wanted everything to match and after working with my Chief, it really was awarded/ordered/signed as an MSM so this is a moot point. We don't use points for promotion in the ANG so I could care less about that aspect.
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CSM Richard StCyr
CSM Richard StCyr
9 y
TSgt (Join to see) - Thanks, got it now.
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
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Unfortunately, many awards get approved/denied based on the recipient's rank regardless of accomplishment. If the original was downgraded, I wouldn't hold much hope of having the ARCOM upgraded to an MSM. There is always an exception to every rule so nothing lost by giving it a shot. I'd send the request to AFPC and see what happens.
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Put in for MSM-Downgraded to ARCOM. Signed order issued 6yr ago as MSM (ARNG). I'm in the ANG and want it fixed. Advice? Suggestions?
GySgt Bill Smith
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Be happy with what you got.
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I happy worth what I got but is worth it to me to have my personnel file match to my actual awards and decorations. Not looking for anything to be upgraded, just fixed. That's all.
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I hate auto correct. I'm happy with what I got and it'd be worth it to have everything correct in my personnel file.
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GySgt Bill Smith
GySgt Bill Smith
9 y
CW2 Joseph Ramsdell - Sorry CW2, but my years in the Corps have left me thinking MSM and BSM still mean something. Shit I know Grunts that gave 20 years in with multiple deployments and they will retire with a NCOM/ARCOM being their highest award. So when I hear a E-6(not just in this thread) thinking they rate an award like that I just kind of shake my head. When I pull into the parking lot at drill I see countless BSM licences plates. Either everyone is the a super star or some branches are handing them out like candy and making everyone feel they deserve one for showing up. Yes, the award system is jacked up. When you have a 1st Sgt getting an ARCOM for dealing with a troll on the internet it kind of leave people getting an ARCOM for leading patrols for 9 months robbed. Then you have guys loosing arms and legs not getting any award but the mail clerk gets a AAM. So when I say be happy for what you got, I mean be happy you got anything at all. Maybe your next command will treat you better. (Glad to see he is happy for what he got and just wants his records fixed)
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GySgt Bill Smith
GySgt Bill Smith
9 y
CW2 Joseph Ramsdell - CW2 no harm done. Thank you for clearing it up.
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SMSgt Ang Senior Paralegal Manager For Af Professional Development/Af Jag School (Afjags)
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I have to say that in the Air Force, awards are given out like candy - someone goes TDY to backfill for a deployment and they expect to get an award for it. I served 5 years on AD in the Navy and only got one award - my good conduct medal - 4 years consecutive good service (hardest medal for a sailor to get).
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GySgt Bill Smith
GySgt Bill Smith
9 y
8 years AD Marine Corps, 3 deployments one being the invasion into Iraq then Afg in 05 and Iraq again in 06, 2 personal awards. The Good Conduct Medal and Combat Action with star.
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MSgt Richard Randall
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I'm not making any value judgements on why you feel you deserve an MSM, but, this is the general description and guidelines for the award of the MSM from Wikipedia:

The Meritorious Service Medal was previously awarded as a decoration for achievement during peacetime, but effective 11 September 2001, this decoration may also be bestowed in lieu of the Bronze Star Medal for meritorious achievement in a designated combat theater. Normally, the acts or services rendered must be comparable to that required for the Legion of Merit but in a duty of lesser, though considerable, responsibility. Within the U.S. Army, according to AR 600-8-22, Paragraph 3-16, the MSM may not be upgraded to or downgraded from a recommended Bronze Star Medal. In the Army, an MSM recommendation that is downgraded will be approved as an Army Commendation Medal (ARCOM).

In the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Force, recipients of the Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) are typically field grade officers in pay grades O-4 through O-6 (major, lieutenant colonel, colonel), senior chief warrant officers in pay grades W-3 through W-5 (CW3 to CW5, Army only), and senior non-commissioned officers (E-7 to E-9) in both the Army and the Air Force. Award of the MSM may be for meritorious performance while serving in a staff position as a field grade officer, senior chief warrant officer, or senior non-commissioned office, or, in the case of field grade officers, for successful completion of a command tour at the battalion (Army) or squadron (Army or Air Force) level. Award of the MSM to company grade officers in pay grades O-1 through O-3 (2d lieutenant, 1st lieutenant, captain), junior warrant officers/chief warrant officers in pay grades W-1 and W-2 (WO1 and CW2, Army only), and junior NCOs in pay grades E-6 and below is rare and typically by exception.
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
Thanks for all that. As I stated before in one of my other comments, people were not understanding what I was saying or I didn't explain it very well. I AM NOT asking for any of my awards to be UPGRADED. I was simply asking how to get an award downgraded to an ARCOM because I was told I was getting an ARCOM but the official, signed, dated, and submitted award to IPERMS is actually an MSM. this question for suggestions or advice is a moot point now that I've seen the order and discussed it with my chief. I would NEVER expect any award that had been given to me to be something different. I was going by what I was being told, not what was officially put in my record.
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1SG Military Police
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Check the awards regulation. The last time I looked, there was a "statute of limitations" of 2 years.
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CSM Richard StCyr
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At which level was the down grade? MSMs are approved at the 2 star level, rarely and I mean rare like an albino Bison will the approval authority go against the intermediate commanders recommendation and upgrade a service award. Look at your DA638 awards recommendation.
I once got orders for an MSM on a group orders document prior to an awards ceremony when I was a SSG only to find out it was incorrect and the clerk had shifted everyone up one space, and while I had been recommended for an MSM it was in fact down graded to an ARCOM the orders were rescinded and amended. In the end I was happy to get the ARCOM on awards day because someone cared enough to write it up.
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SMSgt Ang Senior Paralegal Manager For Af Professional Development/Af Jag School (Afjags)
SMSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I agree, I had a supervisor that told me to write up my own award. I told him, that I would give him bullets of my work for X to Y, but if he thought I deserved an award, he should write me up for it. I did not want an award that I wrote up myself and then submitted for approval, with just him initial it. I had many supervisors after him, that show me what a true mentor/supervisor was and put me in for awards that I had earned. Those were worth more to me to know that I had shown my worth to the unit and mission.
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SSgt Michael Cox
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Just because your supervisor said he was writing you an MSM doesn't mean you will get that I had 2 AFCM written for me one was downgraded to an AFAM the other was dropped altogether. I know for the AF MSM's are reserved for E-7's and above not sure about the Army.
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I understand this. I was told (didn't see the official write up and signed order) it was down graded but actually it was an MSM. Hence the reason for it showing in my PIF.
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SGT Information Technology Specialist
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When they selected the Downgrade box on the back of the DA638, what did they put in the Comments block?
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TSgt Enlisted Accessions Recruiter
TSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I don't have it in front of me but I can take a look at it later.
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