Posted on May 22, 2015
Ranger/Sapper basic training (Should Drill Sergeants be Ranger/Sapper qualified to instruct Infantry/Engineer recruits?)
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Alright, the PVT is throwing in some thoughts again. So, wouldn't it be more beneficial is for infantry osut, the drill sergeants have all gone and graduated from ranger school. Likewise is combat engineer osut, if the drill sergeants went and graduated from sapper school. I feel that would be a bit more beneficial. Thoughts?
Basic Training
Drill Sergeant
Sapper School
Ranger School
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 20
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Yes, but not possible. Ranger school knocks out a LARGE percent of potential Infantry drill sergeants. The Army has great Infantry NCO's but not all of them can pass a school like that. Ranger makes a good NCO better, but not the BEST!
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SFC Joseph James
PVT (Join to see), sure but they are the exception and not the rule. Truly great Drill Sergeants do not need tabs, but they do help make them better. Drill Sergeants make soldiers not Infantry, Sappers, Artillery, etc Experts! The Regular duty unit, experience, and additional schools help do that.
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The fundamental issue here is Basic Combat Training is exactly that - Basic. It focuses on the individual military training, not small unit or specific branch requirements. OSUT follow-on related training after the first 9 weeks might benefit from instructors with specialized qualifications such as Ranger or Sapper, but intent has been to baseline instruction not focus on specific TTPs. The question is whether the juice is worth the squeeze.
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PVT (Join to see)
This post was ment specifically for infantry osut and combat engineer osut only. Also, sir. If its juice isn't it already squeezed?
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LTC (Join to see)
Touché on both. BCT is a component of OSUT, hence why I referenced the comment, as the Army continues the emplacement of their university education model, the fundamentals are the same for each. Ideal would be to code positions by ASI and authorize some to attend the specialty schools.
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SFC Craig Dalen
You don't need to be Infantry or an Engineer to answer this question. Being a former Drill Sergeant these schools do not teach you wnat is necessary to change a civilian into a Soldier. Basic training alone will not do that. These tabs for OSUT are only another scare tactic for the DS to wear and that is it. In order to be a good DS you must be able to effectively teach discipline and order while the Soldiers learn a lot of things at a basic level.
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Why just stop at a Ranger Tab. Why not make all Drill Sergeants be Ranger Qualified and Special Forces Qualified? They would make awesome Drill Sergeants and bring plenty of experience. Except there are not that many of them around and you don't need that level of experience to teach Basic Rifle Marksmanship.
You'd also virtually limit all Drill Sergeant slots to 11Bs who served in Light Infantry units, particularly Airborne Light Infantry units, because they get the lion's share of Ranger School slots. Sounds like a great idea until you consider the fact that an 11B from the 82nd Airborne with a Ranger Tab isn't going to tell you much about a Bradely Fighting Vehicle.
The fact is, most new recruits to the Infantry will not be going to the 82nd Airborne Division, the two separate Airborne Infantry Brigades, or the 75th Ranger Regiment. They are going to go to other light infantry units, mechanized infantry units, or even be a dismount for a cavalry unit or even an armored unit. That means that in order to develop a well rounded recruit, you need well rounded instructors. On top of that Ranger tabbed paratrooper, you need an NCO from the 3rd ID who is Master Gunner qualified whose unit only gets 5 Ranger slots a year.
On top of that, what exactly is a Ranger Tab? It is a piece of cloth that represents successful graduation from a course 62 days in length. Just like any school, the skill is perishable. If the guy got his tab 8 years ago as a PFC and is now an E-7, is the Ranger Tab really relevant? Think about it....it is as the old saying goes, it is the man that makes the tab, the tab doesn't make the man.
You'd also virtually limit all Drill Sergeant slots to 11Bs who served in Light Infantry units, particularly Airborne Light Infantry units, because they get the lion's share of Ranger School slots. Sounds like a great idea until you consider the fact that an 11B from the 82nd Airborne with a Ranger Tab isn't going to tell you much about a Bradely Fighting Vehicle.
The fact is, most new recruits to the Infantry will not be going to the 82nd Airborne Division, the two separate Airborne Infantry Brigades, or the 75th Ranger Regiment. They are going to go to other light infantry units, mechanized infantry units, or even be a dismount for a cavalry unit or even an armored unit. That means that in order to develop a well rounded recruit, you need well rounded instructors. On top of that Ranger tabbed paratrooper, you need an NCO from the 3rd ID who is Master Gunner qualified whose unit only gets 5 Ranger slots a year.
On top of that, what exactly is a Ranger Tab? It is a piece of cloth that represents successful graduation from a course 62 days in length. Just like any school, the skill is perishable. If the guy got his tab 8 years ago as a PFC and is now an E-7, is the Ranger Tab really relevant? Think about it....it is as the old saying goes, it is the man that makes the tab, the tab doesn't make the man.
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SGT Edward Thomas
When I was in 10th SFG(A) we had a 18E get orders for DS school. He flunked it because SF doesn't train basic trainees. They train indigenous forces. They are fine soldiers (Sergeants and Officers alike) but not necessarily IET trainers.
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