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Anyone else dealt with this dilemma? I was appointed Deputy Director as an O-3, now I'm an O-4, but I have O-5s who are technically BELOW me within chain of command. It's quite the catch-22. It's difficult to function in your position that is above those who outrank you. How do you operate as a supposed senior to those who have higher rank than you?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 20
I assume your organizational structure dictates the "reporting chain" and, as such, I assume the 0-5s are not really subordinate to you, as the Deputy Director, but to your boss, the Director. While, in the performance of your duties, you work with them, on behalf of your boss, you are probably not actually above them in the chain of command.
Regardless, the arrangement you find yourself in should not be an issue, if all parties work together to get the mission accomplished. The only time it should be an issue is if you attempt to present yourself as their senior or if they refuse to acknowledge your duty responsibilities. If there is a problem, a few well-placed words from your boss should alleviate that.
I found myself in that situation a few times and, for the most part, all worked out OK. It really depends on the affected parties being more concerned about getting the job done than rank or position.
As the Military Police brigade commander in Korea, I was also the 8th Army Provost Marshal, as well as the US Forces Korea (USFK) Provost Marshal. Brigade commanders in the active Army are Colonels (0-6), whereas, brigade commanders in the Reserve Components are Brigadier Generals (0-7). It was not at all unusual, when we had a major exercise that involved Reserve Components, for me to have one of more BGs (fellow MP brigade commanders) report to me as the 8th Army and/or USFK Provost Marshal. Most had no issue with it, although there were a couple of instances where I had to get my boss, a 3-star, involved.
Regardless, the arrangement you find yourself in should not be an issue, if all parties work together to get the mission accomplished. The only time it should be an issue is if you attempt to present yourself as their senior or if they refuse to acknowledge your duty responsibilities. If there is a problem, a few well-placed words from your boss should alleviate that.
I found myself in that situation a few times and, for the most part, all worked out OK. It really depends on the affected parties being more concerned about getting the job done than rank or position.
As the Military Police brigade commander in Korea, I was also the 8th Army Provost Marshal, as well as the US Forces Korea (USFK) Provost Marshal. Brigade commanders in the active Army are Colonels (0-6), whereas, brigade commanders in the Reserve Components are Brigadier Generals (0-7). It was not at all unusual, when we had a major exercise that involved Reserve Components, for me to have one of more BGs (fellow MP brigade commanders) report to me as the 8th Army and/or USFK Provost Marshal. Most had no issue with it, although there were a couple of instances where I had to get my boss, a 3-star, involved.
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I spent 2 1/2 yrs as an HQs Co. 1SG as an E7 with 3 E8s on the battalion staff. Even though I was their 1SG, there were not technically underneath me as they all worked for a Staff Officer who was equal or higher rank then the Co. Cdr. However, for organizational missions, training, I was in charge. There were no issues as we all knew our rolls. If was a unit affair, formations, training, ranges, etc they fell in and supported.
I would think that in your position, it would be pretty much the same, they are not below you, however they are subordinate to your boss! If all understand their roll and work toward mission accomplishment, shouldn't be any problems. However if there are, take it to your boss (their boss) and let him handle it! I would think that neither you nor the O-5s would want him to feel he could not depend on all of you to focus on the mission and duty first.
I would think that in your position, it would be pretty much the same, they are not below you, however they are subordinate to your boss! If all understand their roll and work toward mission accomplishment, shouldn't be any problems. However if there are, take it to your boss (their boss) and let him handle it! I would think that neither you nor the O-5s would want him to feel he could not depend on all of you to focus on the mission and duty first.
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Eric Cartman - Respect my Authoritah
just a short quick video
As a retired service member, I can offer a possible solution to your dilemma. Again, I am RETIRED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAmJ4aWXEHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAmJ4aWXEHc
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SFC Mark Merino
You and me both LTC Hillary Luton ! Not the most professional answer, but sometimes frustration needs to be combated with humor.
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It the same dilemma that an HHC commander has. He is in command of the company that the BN/BDE commander and primary staff are assigned, yet they all outrank him. I think the key is determining exactly what your authority covers and stick to it. Obviously you cannot rate those individuals, but if you are supervising those O-5's, ensure you are meeting with their rater regularly for feedback.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
Just what I was thinking. I was CDR of a SPT BN HHC, Not only did the commander and primary staff outrank me, so did the OICs of each and every section. It's all about tact.
The biggest issue was getting the section OICs to understand that yes, "their" Soldiers were NOT exempt from the duty roster just because the OIC outranked the CO CDR.
The biggest issue was getting the section OICs to understand that yes, "their" Soldiers were NOT exempt from the duty roster just because the OIC outranked the CO CDR.
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I have dealt with this several times in my career having worked directly for my Commander in positions where my positional authority superseded someone else's rank.
The most common of these type of things come with IG/Inspection Programs, Unit Deployment Programs, etc. As CPO Nemmers pointed out, don't argue with them, if they get their knickers in a knot, attempt to politely explain that you are asking for this on behalf of XYZ as their agent. If that doesn't work, you can have your (their) boss make the appropriate adjustment.
The key it to remind them that while you might be asking/tasking it is on behalf of your mutual boss.
The most common of these type of things come with IG/Inspection Programs, Unit Deployment Programs, etc. As CPO Nemmers pointed out, don't argue with them, if they get their knickers in a knot, attempt to politely explain that you are asking for this on behalf of XYZ as their agent. If that doesn't work, you can have your (their) boss make the appropriate adjustment.
The key it to remind them that while you might be asking/tasking it is on behalf of your mutual boss.
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SSgt (Join to see)
TSgt Joshua Copeland - That requires a cool head such as telling pilots they cannot fly due to some contingency with the weather.
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Offer to share a bottle of scotch... everything should be smooth sailing after that...
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In the 1995 movie "Heat," Al Pacino's character sums it up nicely when a hot-headed superior tries to get his people to move in on some burglars who've given up on the job and Al's trying to bust them for more:
"That's exactly what they're gonna do, they're gonna walk. This is my operation, I have tactical command that supercedes your rank, they will walk away and you will let them..."
Realistically it's the same scenario, only not in front of anyone. You do your job without flaunting your position. If the superior below you gets huffy you pull them aside discreetly and offer to help them understand the problem and explain the situation. If they're not satisfied with your discussion, you direct them to YOUR superior who (presumably) is senior to them. If they're senior, they'll handle it. If they're junior, well....
"That's exactly what they're gonna do, they're gonna walk. This is my operation, I have tactical command that supercedes your rank, they will walk away and you will let them..."
Realistically it's the same scenario, only not in front of anyone. You do your job without flaunting your position. If the superior below you gets huffy you pull them aside discreetly and offer to help them understand the problem and explain the situation. If they're not satisfied with your discussion, you direct them to YOUR superior who (presumably) is senior to them. If they're senior, they'll handle it. If they're junior, well....
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In short you can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar. Make the Decisions you need to make, if you have to come to them to help make a decision, best to heed their advice. Show them the respect they deserve, but carry yourself in a manner that demands the respect you've earned.
Other than that, don't treat them like a tool or try and micro manage them. IF it comes to it (and I'd hope it wouldn't) Get a mediator to help hash it out. Perferably one that doesn't have an intrest in the issue.
Other than that I'd need details that I'm not privi to.
Other than that, don't treat them like a tool or try and micro manage them. IF it comes to it (and I'd hope it wouldn't) Get a mediator to help hash it out. Perferably one that doesn't have an intrest in the issue.
Other than that I'd need details that I'm not privi to.
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While I can't speak from the Officer side, I am a team leader as an E-2 (Yes, I messed up and was demoted), and I have had SGTs and CPLs in my team. I frequently act as the squad leader as well, and in our organization, we normally operate as a squad sized detachment, meaning as a squad leader, platoon leaders and platoon sergeants of adjacent units are many times at the peer level. My advice is to be proficient to the point that no one will question your abilities in your position. If the officers under you aren't able to see more than rank, they need to reevaluate organizational priorities and substitute mission success for the Army BS. Luckily, I'm in an organizational culture that focuses on tactical and technical proficiency versus Army formalities like I know most of the conventional regular component does. I wish the rest of the Army would adopt our culture.
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