Posted on Apr 2, 2015
Rankism. Is there such a thing in the military?
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Rankism-discrimination against people on the grounds of rank.
There has always been grudges held at the various levels but for what reason. Countless times a new 2LT walks into a situation where he is instantly disliked for merely showing up. How many times have we thought of a new Private as automatically going to make mistakes so you have to treat as such. Or, the CSM that everyone thinks they only care about Uniform violations and walking on the grass.
Recently we found that SMA Dan Dailey revise the tattoo policy. I, for one, didn't see that coming. I didn't think a new SMA would make such a change like that for soldiers. At times we feel that they are so far disconnected from the soldiers they may not have us in mind.
Is this something that we face. Do soldiers with a certain rank or position get grouped in the a mass assumption of others that had that rank in the past?
There has always been grudges held at the various levels but for what reason. Countless times a new 2LT walks into a situation where he is instantly disliked for merely showing up. How many times have we thought of a new Private as automatically going to make mistakes so you have to treat as such. Or, the CSM that everyone thinks they only care about Uniform violations and walking on the grass.
Recently we found that SMA Dan Dailey revise the tattoo policy. I, for one, didn't see that coming. I didn't think a new SMA would make such a change like that for soldiers. At times we feel that they are so far disconnected from the soldiers they may not have us in mind.
Is this something that we face. Do soldiers with a certain rank or position get grouped in the a mass assumption of others that had that rank in the past?
Posted in these groups: 
Leadership
Rank
Leadership Rank
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 142
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SFC Rollie Hubbard
Well I do know that a 2LT is the same as an E-5, they get it coming and going LOL and rightly so.
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MSgt Joseph Holness
ROTFL!!! I used to watch the regular Monty Python episodes that came on late at night and what comes to mind concerning this post is the "Minister of Silly Walks" Monty Python episode. Somehow this has Military Service written all over it! LOL!
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as my first supervisor told me don't worry about others above you or below you.... Take care of those below you and support the ones above. Listen and learn, teach and be taught. every thing else will follow
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I have seen parking spots that said "spouse of a deployed service member"and I thought that was just awesome.
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LTC (Join to see)
I take that back. Maybe if you said "Butterbar" it would be perfect. Still, well done.
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Capt Richard I P.
LTC (Join to see) Sir, I would have but CPT (Join to see) has joined the silver club.
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CPT (Join to see)
Brought to you from the same LT that also brought you "Should a 2LT salute a 1LT?" and "The LT, the most important asset in the Army."
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I think it does because when a CSM got caught wearing an unauthorized/unearned ranger tab he had criminal charges against where as a LTC had the same problem but was just removed from his position but kept rank and pay grade. The CSM had gotten demoted and lowered in his pay.
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CPT (Join to see)
Yeah, I noticed that too. It is a lot harder to reduce an officer but they should have done that.
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LTC J. Lee Mudd
My understanding is that under the UCMJ, officers cannot be punitively reduced in grade. This is institutional rankism...
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I can't respond I have an appointment to get to... haha. But seriously all laughs aside I think that there is a kernel of truth rankism. It is just us being human, we like to group things together. Because really if I polled everybody here they probably have a personal 0-1 story, or an E-4 story, or a E-1 story or an E-9 story(still working on that one, but not really because it means they have to be around me).
Now I try to mentally rip off the rank and look at the person underneath, but when dealing with unknown soldiers and officers I generally plan for the stereotype and hope for the maverick.
Now I try to mentally rip off the rank and look at the person underneath, but when dealing with unknown soldiers and officers I generally plan for the stereotype and hope for the maverick.
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I think it has to do with how the NCO or officer view in their mind, like a total mind set. Like a SSG could be closed minded and be stricted about stuff, or like SMA Dailey have an open mind and listen to the needs of the lower ranked. So to me sir, it just depends on how the person itself views stuff in their mind
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CPT (Join to see)
That is true. The soldiers in you leadership will show you how they handle lower enlisted. This is something that is sometimes learned and passed down. I hope you have strong NCOs that are able to guide you to where you need to be.
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For the most part those senior enlisted and officers deserve that parking spot or whatever else little perk it is. They've been there/done that. What I DON'T agree with are people (mostly junior officers but some senior enlisted) who think that because of their rank they automatically know your job or know uniform regulations better than that First Class who's been in the Navy for 12+ years.
Case in point: when I was stationed on the USS Nimitz I started riding motorcycles. As such I went through all the safety training, wore all the PPE, and learned all the Navy and local instructions. Both Big Navy and local instructions said that I could wear my PPE from the time I parked my bike to my "immediate work area." This meant keeping my jacket and backpack on, carrying my helmet, and not wearing a cover since I wasn't in a complete uniform to begin with. Chiefs on my ship got VERY upset over riders not wearing a cover and therefore not saluting officers or saluting the flag as we came onboard/left the ship (though we were still required to face the flag and come to attention). Quoting the instructions to them was useless "I'm a Chief and I know the instructions and you're wrong!" Carrying the instruction on my person was no better "You could have forged this document!" It took involvement from our Command Master Chief himself explaining the instructions to his Chiefs.
On the other side, I don't know how many times an Ensign would try to give me advice while I was doing maintenance on a server rack, transmitter, or something like that I had been to school for and/or had years of experience on while the butter bar had only ever seen that equipment in a training environment and not in real life operation.
Case in point: when I was stationed on the USS Nimitz I started riding motorcycles. As such I went through all the safety training, wore all the PPE, and learned all the Navy and local instructions. Both Big Navy and local instructions said that I could wear my PPE from the time I parked my bike to my "immediate work area." This meant keeping my jacket and backpack on, carrying my helmet, and not wearing a cover since I wasn't in a complete uniform to begin with. Chiefs on my ship got VERY upset over riders not wearing a cover and therefore not saluting officers or saluting the flag as we came onboard/left the ship (though we were still required to face the flag and come to attention). Quoting the instructions to them was useless "I'm a Chief and I know the instructions and you're wrong!" Carrying the instruction on my person was no better "You could have forged this document!" It took involvement from our Command Master Chief himself explaining the instructions to his Chiefs.
On the other side, I don't know how many times an Ensign would try to give me advice while I was doing maintenance on a server rack, transmitter, or something like that I had been to school for and/or had years of experience on while the butter bar had only ever seen that equipment in a training environment and not in real life operation.
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SFC John Gemmell
Hello John.
I understand your frustration. Knowing, or having the knowledge of, standards and regulations is important. However, we needn't take these sources and present them to the leadership that specifies a different standard. So long as the standard being described by the leadership is lawful, and does not contradict regulation, it is the commander's discretion. Commanders' discretion is extended to a commanders' staff and junior leaders.
There is no reason why a service member cannot pull their soft cap out from a pocket and wear it to the ship. This is not as if the command is suggesting an action that is detrimental to one's health and welfare. It is simply a tradition, and motorcycles are not a part of the military tradition.
When we refer to the rank of another service member on a public network, it is important to ensure we address them accordingly. The use of the term "butter bar" (Miller, personal communication, April 2, 2015), is disrespectful and inappropriate for a network. This is a term we keep tight to within our own thoughts, or company.
One day, you may find yourself wearing the shoes of those whom are your leadership today. Once you arrive at your post, I challenge you to remember your thoughts as they are expressed here. From my standpoint, whether in uniform or out of uniform, if passing a commissioned officer who is known to hold such office, it is the responsibility of the enlisted service member to acknowledge the commissioned officer accordingly. That is, we enlisted members still show our respects to the commissioned officers by saluting. Even with all your training, you might not know all the answers either. Sometimes, a new inexperienced opinion can lead to conversation where both individuals can learn something.
Please remember, saluting the United States Flag of America is not a burden, a responsibility for the sake of duty, but a measure of paying our respects to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice by giving their lives for the sake of our freedom. To disregard this tradition, is to disregard our brethren, and this is my heart felt opinion.
Should it ever come to pass, when you must take this journey, Lord willing it doesn't, I will still salute Old Glory in memory of your sacrifice; just as I still do for SSG Brian M. Long.
Sincerely,
John
I understand your frustration. Knowing, or having the knowledge of, standards and regulations is important. However, we needn't take these sources and present them to the leadership that specifies a different standard. So long as the standard being described by the leadership is lawful, and does not contradict regulation, it is the commander's discretion. Commanders' discretion is extended to a commanders' staff and junior leaders.
There is no reason why a service member cannot pull their soft cap out from a pocket and wear it to the ship. This is not as if the command is suggesting an action that is detrimental to one's health and welfare. It is simply a tradition, and motorcycles are not a part of the military tradition.
When we refer to the rank of another service member on a public network, it is important to ensure we address them accordingly. The use of the term "butter bar" (Miller, personal communication, April 2, 2015), is disrespectful and inappropriate for a network. This is a term we keep tight to within our own thoughts, or company.
One day, you may find yourself wearing the shoes of those whom are your leadership today. Once you arrive at your post, I challenge you to remember your thoughts as they are expressed here. From my standpoint, whether in uniform or out of uniform, if passing a commissioned officer who is known to hold such office, it is the responsibility of the enlisted service member to acknowledge the commissioned officer accordingly. That is, we enlisted members still show our respects to the commissioned officers by saluting. Even with all your training, you might not know all the answers either. Sometimes, a new inexperienced opinion can lead to conversation where both individuals can learn something.
Please remember, saluting the United States Flag of America is not a burden, a responsibility for the sake of duty, but a measure of paying our respects to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice by giving their lives for the sake of our freedom. To disregard this tradition, is to disregard our brethren, and this is my heart felt opinion.
Should it ever come to pass, when you must take this journey, Lord willing it doesn't, I will still salute Old Glory in memory of your sacrifice; just as I still do for SSG Brian M. Long.
Sincerely,
John
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PO1 John Miller
Well, I'm retired so I really don't have to worry about a lot of these things now. But to clarify things, I was going off all instructions and I was still observing military bearing. I would still face the flag and come to attention with my hand over my heart, which is the same protocol for Sailors in civilian clothing as they're entering/exiting a Naval vessel. Likewise if I saw or otherwise recognized an Officer I would acknowledge them "Good morning Sir/Ma'am/Ensign, etc."
As to the term butter bar being derogatory I'm going to have to disagree. That may very well be the case in the Army and/or other military branches but never once in the Navy had I ever been told that. It was not just myself either. Senior enlisted and officers, to include Ensigns, would use the term butter bar to describe a young inexperienced Ensign usually fresh out of the Academy, ROTC, OCS, or however else they may have obtained their commission. Heck, in the Navy we would even refer to officers who went to Annapolis as Ring Knockers as almost a term of endearment. No Naval Academy Officer I ever said that to got offended.
I also don't recall saying it was a "burden" to salute the Flag. I merely said that I didn't render a hand salute because I wasn't in uniform. Wearing a backpack, motorcycle jacket, and motorcycle boots meant that I was out of uniform and therefore it would be improper to render a hand salute. I simply followed the protocols in place for members in civilian clothes.
As to the term butter bar being derogatory I'm going to have to disagree. That may very well be the case in the Army and/or other military branches but never once in the Navy had I ever been told that. It was not just myself either. Senior enlisted and officers, to include Ensigns, would use the term butter bar to describe a young inexperienced Ensign usually fresh out of the Academy, ROTC, OCS, or however else they may have obtained their commission. Heck, in the Navy we would even refer to officers who went to Annapolis as Ring Knockers as almost a term of endearment. No Naval Academy Officer I ever said that to got offended.
I also don't recall saying it was a "burden" to salute the Flag. I merely said that I didn't render a hand salute because I wasn't in uniform. Wearing a backpack, motorcycle jacket, and motorcycle boots meant that I was out of uniform and therefore it would be improper to render a hand salute. I simply followed the protocols in place for members in civilian clothes.
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PO2 Tazz Henderson
A lot of the senior enlisted and Officers have a hard time taking advice from someone of lowere rank than them. Even though the lower rank person may be right, they still see themselves as senior.
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I think the proper phrase is "Rank has it's privileges". Right or wrong, it is what it is. Sure, that 2LT is going to catch some hell and that PV1/PV2 is going to seen as the guy to mess things up. A new CSM may be seen as a jerk because he/she actually ensures standards are met and followed.
Now does that make any of it right? No but until the circle is broken it will continue to go around.
Now does that make any of it right? No but until the circle is broken it will continue to go around.
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MSG Brad Sand
Rank has it's privileges, but it also has it's responsibilities. The privileges are earned by meeting those responsibilities. Sure some, fail and earn privileges paid for by the majority of the others in that group, but that is life and we can only hope the slackers reaper their own harvest.
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MSgt Joseph Holness
MSG Brad Sand - "Rank has it's privileges, but it also has it's responsibilities"......Too Bad some haven't figured that out yet. Unfortunately, these same individuals end up in well-paying civilian jobs with fancy titles after their stint or career in the Military is over.
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I have examples, but I'm just going to say yes it happens. It would sound like I'm complaining if I went into detail on my examples. I've been treated like I'm not responsible, incompetent and an idiot, and my opinion ignored (even when the NCO next to me repeated what I said and had it accepted) based on being an A1C.
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CPT (Join to see)
That is when it is a problem. It is a mistake to disregard anyone in a unit. Rank shouldn't matter. We all have our place and should pay our due respect but it is a two way road. I am sure many of them will say that it happened to them so they are doing the same thing now.
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A1C (Join to see)
That's probably what it is. Hopefully my peers will remember and change the way things go, I know I will.
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CPT (Join to see)
We have to go on and be that change. I know it sounds like some campaign add but I was once that PFC (E-3) that was thinking this. I will do all that I can to address what I can. When you are a CPT one day you can effect change too. Who knows you may be the senior most enlisted person in the AF or a GEN one day.
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A1C (Join to see)
Even if I'm not, maybe being the example will spark those around me to change. I have high hopes, but I know it takes time. Someday I will be in charge, and many things will be changing to improve certain things that I see.
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