Posted on Nov 12, 2020
SGT Parachute Rigger
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I know everything comes down to Commander discretion. My question is if an item has a NSN it means it was or is issued, correct? Why wouldn't it be able to be used at that point? I appreciate any input.
Posted in these groups: Ar Army RegulationsRules and regulations Regulation
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CPT Advisor
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Some items may be appropriate for some situations, environments, or units that aren't appropriate for others. A plate carrier with an NSN may not provide the protection needed (as deemed by a superior in your CoC), though other units may find it necessary to sacrifice some protection in order to lighten the load.

Some outlandish examples to illustrate the point -

I decide that I want to be as protected as possible as a light infantryman, so I purchase a EOD tech suit and wear it on patrol. It has an NSN, but it isn't the right level of protection for the situation.

I work at the CDC with highly contagious viruses, but my PAPR suit is cumbersome. I buy an M40 pro mask and wear it instead. It has an NSN but isn't the appropriate tool for that environment.

Obviously the difference between an IOTV and a plate carrier isn't as big a gap as those examples, but the point is, someone above you and me decides what is an appropriately level of protection for the situation, environment, and unit we are in.
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Could be old, outdated or found to be flawed but mistakenly left in inventory. Could be for use in specific conditions. Could be prioritized to different units.
SGT Parachute Rigger
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The plate carrier I'm specifically referring to is the Crye AVS, SFC.
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SGT (Join to see) I dunno. I’m not a geardo. I wore what the Army gave me and didn’t die.
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SGT (Join to see) - Imagine you're wearing that out in the field, and an errant mortar round drifts into your sector and impacts near you. A piece of shrapnel hits you just above your collar bone seriously wounding or killing you. A 15-6 investigation takes place, and it is determined that the CoC authorized you to wear an unissued piece of gear with less protection in the area you were hit, and that in all likelihood the OITV would have provided greater protection, possibly saving you.

At a minimum, your commander's career is now over. That is how officers think (in worst case scenarios). Especially when they are hoping to make O-6+ some day, they are very averse to unnecessary risk. Like a politician, one whiff of a scandal is enough to derail a career.
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SSG Medic Advisor
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Crye AVS is an issue item. Just not issued to this Soldier.
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SGT Bradley Dixon
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Because...Army.
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SGT Parachute Rigger
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Yeah, that doesn't really answer my question in regards to regulations. I appreciate the input, though, man
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Regarding personal plate carriers, if an item has a NSN, it means it was or is issued, correct? Why wouldn't it be able to be used?
SSG Medic Advisor
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I have worn issue, non issue, NSN non issue, ect. It all comes down to your unit.

Want a reason why? Because someone in a command position somewhere in your CoC decided so. That does not mean it was a logical, or illogical decision; they honestly may just not care that much and it's easier to say you wear what you are given.

As a young Soldier, I promise you....you don't want to be that guy going against what everyone else (especially your SGT and above) are doing/advising. Logic dictates, a fighter is more effective if they are comfortable in the gear they use, let alone the benefits of a Crye AVS vs some issued bs. But, the Army (it's typical "leaders") don't care about that. Just be happy you don't have 1 of those unit SOPs that dictate where each pouch on your kit will be located, and force you to wear 1 standard loadout across the formation....
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SSG Dale London
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To clarify, NSN stands for NATO Stock Number. That means the item has been purchased through formal procurement paths by at least one NATO country. It does not mean it has been issued, that it is in normal use, or authorised for use by US forces. There are Sikh turbans with an NSN. That does not mean you can wear it with your uniform.
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CW2 Electronic Warfare Technician
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The Crye AVS has an NSN because it's standard issue for USASOC. Conventional force has different standard issue stuff. The Army said many years ago (like 2007ish) that you HAVE to use ISSUED body armor or you forfeit your SGLI. ARSOF gets the AVS for a reason, the mission requires it and Humans are more important than Hardware. The conventional gets not-the-AVS because they get what is the least expensive thing that meets the minimum standard - because they have to outfit 300,000 Soldiers with it. Think 40 person Infantry platoon over 12 person ODA or 4 person CAT.
The IOTV blows, trust me I know. We all wanted Dragon Skin when it debuted but it wasn't worth forfeiting SGLI for a little comfort.
If you want an AVS, head on down to bldg 1042 on O'Connell Blvd and ask for Larry, Cesar, or Will and they'll get you prepped for one of the 3 Selections.
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1SG Alan Boggs
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Believe me when I say you do not want to look different than those around you. A sniper scanning your column looking for a high value target would be attracted to someone who doesnt match.
Wear what you're issued.
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SFC Peter Krarup
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I'm going to be the turd in the punch bowl here. Ok, you get deployed to the CZ and bring your Crye stuff, and several of your buddies, based on your example, decide to bring their own personal favorite armor(s), all different brands, configuration requirements, etc. Your unit comes under fire and several of the armor systems get their plates broken. Where are you going to get replacements? Is Crye & every other non-standard system going to be authorized to ship their stuff to you? Probably not. So you and several of your buds are now without effective armor and possibly wounded. Having deployed to Kandahar as a USARC G-4/8 liaison, I can tell you that the CIF there was running minimal inventory and would have to contact Ft Benning's CIF to get shipments to them. Now you & your buds have to go out with insufficient armor. Do you think your CO & 1SG are at all happy with that solution? No, they're not, they're even having to think about how to explain to your parents how this all happened.
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SGT Parachute Rigger
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No, I completely understand what you're stating, SFC. I'm not wearing my own plates. I just pulled the plates from my IOTV that were issued by CIF. I'm not asking to wear this on deployment because I'd get issued the KDH plate carrier from RFI. This is strictly a garrison question. Thank you for your reply, SFC.
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SFC Peter Krarup
SFC Peter Krarup
5 y
I'd suggest you find out why the issue gear isn't properly fitting you. If it's the wrong size or not adjusted properly, you'd be uncomfortable. See if you can get to the CIF and see if they have any of the manuals (or check online) or they have someone who's knowledgeable about the system. I had to adjust my gear to fit, and helped others figure out how to adjust theirs.
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SFC Peter Krarup
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Several questions here: Items with an NSN (National Stock Number) are generally furnished through military channels but are also available through Clothing Sales Stores at PX/BXs and off-post Army/Navy stores (new & used, etc.). The question of usability is different, as something may not be allowed due to command directive or possible damage to the item. Can you provide more detail on the situation?
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SGT Parachute Rigger
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I'm wanting to wear this as I can shoot, move better in it. It's the pattern we should be wearing. I was issued a UCP IOTV. It's a Crye AVS.
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SFC Peter Krarup
SFC Peter Krarup
5 y
It doesn't matter what we/you "should" be wearing. If it's not in accordance with command guidance, then you should obey that guidance and follow orders. I generally hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it. When I was active duty, I probably bitched & whined as much as anybody else while I was junior enlisted. As I got older (& a bit wiser), I realized that the reasons were there for a purpose and the best judgement of my superior officers & NCOs was to do things that would keep me and my fellow Soldiers alive longer. Has the Crye system been tested in combat? Has it been tested by the Natick labs? https://www.army.mil/natick/.
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