Posted on Apr 12, 2014
Shaved heads in basic training; is this mandatory? If it is, then why and why only for males?
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So I was in basic training land today to help with some medical stuff. I couldn't help but noticed all the shaved heads all over the place and then the females with 20 ft of hair. In an era where we are screaming equal treatment; is this equal?I am also wondering why does a new private have to get his head shaved in the first place? Why not just a haircut within Army Standards?
Have the lines between male and female been erased? Are they trying to be erased or are we picking and choosing which ones we want to erase? Why does a male soldier have no choice in keeping his hair but a female does? If you love Liberty you will vote below.
ADDED: Could this be considered a form of hazing with the crackdown on hazing since this is obviously not a requirement but more of a tradition? I'm not saying I think it is I'm just asking the question. If it's not required and it doesn't apply to everyone.
*****UPDATED******
Well, well, well what do we have here?
http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/careers/2015/01/08/rtc-boot-camp-haircuts-navy/21439483/
Have the lines between male and female been erased? Are they trying to be erased or are we picking and choosing which ones we want to erase? Why does a male soldier have no choice in keeping his hair but a female does? If you love Liberty you will vote below.
ADDED: Could this be considered a form of hazing with the crackdown on hazing since this is obviously not a requirement but more of a tradition? I'm not saying I think it is I'm just asking the question. If it's not required and it doesn't apply to everyone.
*****UPDATED******
Well, well, well what do we have here?
http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/careers/2015/01/08/rtc-boot-camp-haircuts-navy/21439483/
Basic Training
Grooming Standards
Equality
Drill Sergeant
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 458
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Hmmmmmmm. Interesting. We fight and fight for equality on all levels and now that we have opened our combat MOS's this is the first time I even thought about this. I was under the impression that we shaved our heads as a hygiene issue as well as a social "transformation" Looks like we have several options. We all shave our heads as equals, or we come up with some lame excuse why only men should do it (and if we disagree =sexist). It will be interesting how this issue would be spun if it even got placed on the agenda.
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PO1 Jeffrey Pennala
Equality for all, just the women get to be more equal than men when it comes to the grooming standards.....just saying
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SFC Casey O'Mally
PO1 Jeffrey Pennala All animals are equal. Some animals are more equal than others.
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LTC (Join to see)
PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - escpecially when you go to the field and there are 2 shower/latrines. 1 for the 120 males and the other for the 3 females....
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A1C Lisa Casserly
PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - I see your point. But in many ways I believe that there is a case for "separate but equal" based on sex. We are NOT created equal in that respect. Physically we have different musculature, different bone density. I know HAIR is a small thing, but many of us are totally happy to be that "different". In all honestly, if we were all the same, we'd all be either male or female, (or sexless) and reproduce by splitting like amoebas.
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Only 'right' answer in our Army culture is 'Only males should have their heads shaved'. If they change the regulation, then I can give a different answer BUT we can think women should, or should not, shave their hair and the men should be able to grow a beard or have their hair in bun but, thank the Lord, we have not sank so far as an Army that the regulation allows such things.
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LTC (Join to see)
I'm more concerned about going to the field and having 2 showers/latrines. 1 for the 120 males and the other one for the 3 females......
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LCDR (Join to see)
This forum is about discussion. "What do the regs say?" is not the "right answer."
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I was in basic in 1983. Females have hair standards as well. It's harder to maintain especially in basic. So I see 2 things here, first there simply isn't time to do anything more for the males than full on buzz. They are taking them right off the streets and turning them into soldiers. Second, the women were forced to get theirs cut also if they couldn't be quickly conformed to Military standards. Not cut completely off but cut nonetheless. I didn't see any disparity there at the time and I don't now. We have much larger issues in the military than to make issues where none really exist.
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A1C Lisa Casserly
Yes, that is true. I was in Basic in late summer of 1984; we had a girl from Guam who had the most amazing super long, never-touched-by-a-scissors head of thick, lusterous blue-black hair. And because it did not fit under her hat, we had to cut off what seemed like a MILE of it in the supply room. It was heartbreaking to see it laying in the trash can. But standards are standards.
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20 foot of hair sounds like an exaggeration, when I went thru Basic and AIT, the ladies hair was maybe 10 to 12 inches.
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SP5 Jeannie Carle
Thank you Cowboy! Good to see a familiar face in this TOTALLY unfamiliar territory.
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A1C Lisa Casserly
When I was in Basic in 1984, there was a girl from Guam with us, training for Air Guard. She literally had hair to her knees, it had never been touched by a scissors. It was a thing of beauty... I was so jealous, since I can't grow nice hair! And she could not get it under her hat, there was just SO MUCH and it was so thick. She begged us to cut it off for her. Which we did, with much regret. We went into the supply room and cut hunks of it off until we could get it to fit under her hat and be within standards. And we only cut the absolute minimum. I think we were all broken hearted over it, seeing all that lustrous blue-black hair laying in the trash can.
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What I was told dealing with the hair when I went through was, males got their heads shaved to save time throughout the basic. That way they didn't have to take time out of the schedule of classes set up for us to instead get hair cuts weekly. Females don't have to worry about this because they can put their hair up. So, thinking that way, it doesn't come down to equality, but to convenience for the services to teach us.
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Same treatment, same opportunities, same standards. Remove sex-based language and treatment.
Marine Recruits should have their heads shaved, it simplifies hygiene and the mental transition.
Marine Recruits should have their heads shaved, it simplifies hygiene and the mental transition.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
It is very seldom someone says something that has enough validity to make me change my mind. Not that Im stubborn, it's just that most of what I've seen in regards to this argument relates to the easy "make everyone equal by making them all perform to male standards" nonsense.
I believe you are sincere with your response and I appreciate that. As much as I absolutely despise the idea of service members having to lose their gender identity, (I can't believe Im about to admit this) I think you may be right about how "anything short of uniformity degrades our cohesiveness". I think the situation we're in now where males are constantly pitted against females proves your point.
I will say however that gender isn't simply an outward characteristic. It's a scientific fact that does separate species of all kinds. Regardless, you have my wheels turning sir.
I believe you are sincere with your response and I appreciate that. As much as I absolutely despise the idea of service members having to lose their gender identity, (I can't believe Im about to admit this) I think you may be right about how "anything short of uniformity degrades our cohesiveness". I think the situation we're in now where males are constantly pitted against females proves your point.
I will say however that gender isn't simply an outward characteristic. It's a scientific fact that does separate species of all kinds. Regardless, you have my wheels turning sir.
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Capt Richard I P.
SSG V. Michelle Woods I respect your thought thought-fullness and your willingness to keep thinking about this topic. Continued willingness to question our previously held ideas is what allows us to grow.
Sex (as distinct from gender-a cultural and behavioral thing) is indeed a scientific fact that separates animals of all species, and it does restrict the behavior roles of most animals. What separates us from animals is our mind. We have the ability to overcome the dictates of our animal origin.
I think it it important to consider what we expect of our Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen and Marines, and those in specific specialties, then hold them to those standards. What we do is combat, and combat doesn't care what your sex or race or heritage is or who you pick as a life partner. The only things combat cares about are how fast, how strong, how smart, how much endurance, how much toughness, and how much love you have for your fellow warriors.
Sex (as distinct from gender-a cultural and behavioral thing) is indeed a scientific fact that separates animals of all species, and it does restrict the behavior roles of most animals. What separates us from animals is our mind. We have the ability to overcome the dictates of our animal origin.
I think it it important to consider what we expect of our Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen and Marines, and those in specific specialties, then hold them to those standards. What we do is combat, and combat doesn't care what your sex or race or heritage is or who you pick as a life partner. The only things combat cares about are how fast, how strong, how smart, how much endurance, how much toughness, and how much love you have for your fellow warriors.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
I really hope the armed forces move toward considering specific specialties and their standards before we have infantrymen running around with hair buns or finance clerks running around with shaved heads lol.
Being fit to fight is necessary as well as being able to process payroll requests however to go to those two extremes for EVERY service member would make us look ridiculous lol.
Being fit to fight is necessary as well as being able to process payroll requests however to go to those two extremes for EVERY service member would make us look ridiculous lol.
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CPT William Jones
SSG you must remember every soldier may be required to fight as infantry under certain conditions. So mixed standards for MOS might not be such a good idea.Ie ww2 battle of lots of conversions to infantry Iraq people in convoys getting ambushed and finding their personal weapon didn't work because they failed to keep it clean. The Marines make it clear Every marine is a rifleman
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1LT William Clardy
SFC Mark Merino, I'm from the South *and* grew up in a seriously matriarchal family, so I have no problem problem playing both sides of the fence.
Let the men have their stubble as a rite of masculine passage while the women can keep their tresses because they don't need to be ugly to be fierce -- as any Southern lady can attest (and Texas counts as Southern in this regard, SSG V. Michelle Woods).
Let the men have their stubble as a rite of masculine passage while the women can keep their tresses because they don't need to be ugly to be fierce -- as any Southern lady can attest (and Texas counts as Southern in this regard, SSG V. Michelle Woods).
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
Texas seceded with the Confederacy and is absolutely Southern! We're just the most unique kind of South ;)
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Maj Neal Jackman
SSG V. Michelle Woods - Never ask where someone is from, if they are from Texas, they will tell you, if not, don't embarrass them. Jimmy Dean
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If women want equality, then it only seems fair that they should be treated just like males during basic training.
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CPT (Join to see)
Because this topic is about how female's don't have to change their hair styles as long as it is 670-1 compliant while in Basic, but males do.
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CPT William Jones
The hair reg should state min/max length and have it apply equally to both sexes. This is from A guy that has worn his short since about 1960 or earlier, however if you want to grow yours to the floor im cool with that to.
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As a Drill Sergeant I am all for males getting there heads shaved simply because you do not have time to get 200 male Soldiers threw the PX and Haircuts all within a hour or two time block. Fort Jackson graduates almost 1000 Soldiers a week here and there barber shop depending on what side of post has maybe 3-5 barbers in it. That is just my opinion though. Simply do not have time.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - The use the lowest cutting standard on the electric clippers. No razors are used
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MSG (Join to see)
PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - I don't understand what your trying to say. The female Soldiers can get a hair cut as well if they like. However most choose not to. I would not call that special treatment thats just the way it is. As far as everyone getting a hair cut during BCT is a sore subject. I don't make enough and I don't write policy to change it. I haven't been a Drill Sergeant in many years but when I left the trail female Soldiers were not required to shave there heads.
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SGT (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - I wanted to be sure because I'd never heard of razors used on the scalp in this era. With that clarification, it would be "buzz cut", not "shave" fro mmy understanding.
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PO1 Jeffrey Pennala
SFC(P) Josh Morgan thank you reading my response, the point I was trying to make was that folks were saying that when they were pushing boot campers through boot camp the time allotted for mens haircuts was a small window and was just enough time to buzz the hair off boot camp style. So if men and women were to receiving the same training how could it be possible for the women going through boot camp to have enough time to have their hair styled and their choices explained but the men only get a tiny window.
Which part of the training men were receiving was altered or cut out to allow for the women to have extra hair styling time? Wouldn't be easier to everybody get their cut hair off and just let that be a part of the experience for everyone who goes through boot camp, let the training be the same for everyone haircuts included.
Which part of the training men were receiving was altered or cut out to allow for the women to have extra hair styling time? Wouldn't be easier to everybody get their cut hair off and just let that be a part of the experience for everyone who goes through boot camp, let the training be the same for everyone haircuts included.
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BLUF: Stay within the standards. I don't understand the rest of the argument, unless there is a hygiene issue. I was the AF Med Planner in Africa the last two years and females are forced to shave their heads as children due to hygiene/sanitation issues, but if your family/village could afford to have you shower in anything better than sewage water, they allow the female to grow out their hair.
We fortunately have the infrastructure and clean water to shower and maintain styles according to personal preference and in the military, in line with the regs. For females, it is easier to put longer hair into a clean bun away from the face. I don't see why a male or female has to shave their head bald and how does a female shaving their head make her more equal to a male? I've seen shorter cuts on females that look great but a bald GI Jane would be more distracting than a female with a standard bun.
We fortunately have the infrastructure and clean water to shower and maintain styles according to personal preference and in the military, in line with the regs. For females, it is easier to put longer hair into a clean bun away from the face. I don't see why a male or female has to shave their head bald and how does a female shaving their head make her more equal to a male? I've seen shorter cuts on females that look great but a bald GI Jane would be more distracting than a female with a standard bun.
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