Posted on Aug 27, 2022
Should a Chapter be initiated on a Soldier who claims Suicidal Ideations the day before the unit flys out of country?
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Just trying to get everyone’s opinion. But recently went on a Europe Rotation and had several soldiers in the battalion fall of the manifest because they claimed suicidal ideations the day before the flight. This was 7 months ago and when the battalion came back many of those Soldiers were just hanging out on rear d. None have had any sort of chapter initiated. Any thoughts on what should happen?
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Legal Services Deployment
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 11
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This person definitely needs an evaluation. As a former commander, I would have initiated that as soon as those persons said what they did. So either they need treatment or discharge.
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7 months of mandatory daily psychiatric counseling. Restricted to base because they may be a danger to themselves if out in the community (until a mental determination is made of course).
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir, that certainly sounds punitive.
The Army has made a very hard push to treat and view mental health the same as physical health.
So... if "several Soldiers" broke their legs the day prior to shipping - even if you suspected (but had no evidence) that it was a "break our leg to get out of deoyment" pact - would you recommend the same course of action?
The Army has made a very hard push to treat and view mental health the same as physical health.
So... if "several Soldiers" broke their legs the day prior to shipping - even if you suspected (but had no evidence) that it was a "break our leg to get out of deoyment" pact - would you recommend the same course of action?
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SSgt (Join to see)
In effect the minimum mandatory restrictions are counter-intuitive because if a person is going to do it, they will. If they are faced with such restrictions, they may not divulge that they have had ideations of imminent intent or being manic (Bi-Polar 1) and feelings that life is not worth it anymore. The worst side of Bi-Polar is the depression that goes along with a manic phase. I have Bi-Polar 1.
Secondly, ideations are not actions because a person can have ideations which are fleeting but marrying thoughts with actual intentions are a crisis. Calling [login to see] are de-escalation techniques that may mitigate those thoughts. Cognitive Therapy (CBT) and mindfulness can help with that. Being sequestered in a locked facility may not. I could have given up after my daughter was kidnapped, so coping is the best kind, eschewing a locked therapeutic environment for hopefulness. Even outpatient care presents opportunity being on base or not.
Thirdly what is therapy? What does it look like? Is the Baker Act or 5150 useful? These are meant for an immediate observation. A person can find ways around restrictions either by walking into traffic and they can do that on-base or off-base.
My nephew killed himself at home and no one knew his motives. He had no markers as to his potential demise. Education, service dogs and support groups he also but the therapy is more than just sitting around consuming snacks every few ideas. Immersing into society by soup kitchens or recreational therapy.
Be active, finding a purpose or dealing with a crisis in a favorable light.
Lt Col Charlie Brown COL Randall C. SFC Casey O'Mally MSG (Join to see)
Secondly, ideations are not actions because a person can have ideations which are fleeting but marrying thoughts with actual intentions are a crisis. Calling [login to see] are de-escalation techniques that may mitigate those thoughts. Cognitive Therapy (CBT) and mindfulness can help with that. Being sequestered in a locked facility may not. I could have given up after my daughter was kidnapped, so coping is the best kind, eschewing a locked therapeutic environment for hopefulness. Even outpatient care presents opportunity being on base or not.
Thirdly what is therapy? What does it look like? Is the Baker Act or 5150 useful? These are meant for an immediate observation. A person can find ways around restrictions either by walking into traffic and they can do that on-base or off-base.
My nephew killed himself at home and no one knew his motives. He had no markers as to his potential demise. Education, service dogs and support groups he also but the therapy is more than just sitting around consuming snacks every few ideas. Immersing into society by soup kitchens or recreational therapy.
Be active, finding a purpose or dealing with a crisis in a favorable light.
Lt Col Charlie Brown COL Randall C. SFC Casey O'Mally MSG (Join to see)
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Sooo....obviously suicidal ideation statements should not be taken lightly, however.....my eyebrow raises because multiple soldiers state this the day before? That's got hinky written all over it.
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SFC (Join to see)
I had a Soldier on my team who claimed to be suicidal, he even took some medications but it was not true at all...at the end he was not allowed to re-enlist by not being able to pass APFT and tape...
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Chaptering Soldiers for any reason could take months, especially for mental health. Medical separations take even longer. There are multiple steps that have to occure with medical assessments and usually 6 months treatment (to try and rehabilitate) before kicking out a Soldier. Just because you saw them "hanging out" when you got home does not mean they aren't in the process of separation or rehabilitation.
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SFC (Join to see)
No there has literally been no follow through with anything for them while we were gone. Basically got a free pass to not deploy with the battalion.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
SFC (Join to see) - Are you in their direct chain of command and have 'a need to know'? If not, behavioral health (BH) is very secured and if your rank and position have you knowing without a direct need to know, please be careful what you post and say. My last Army job had me with access to many files and often times either the BH file was completely restricted or you got an ugly warning when entering it. I am an RN and had a need to know. All that said, if you are not in a position with a need to know, they very well could have seen BH and you are not in the loop. BH is a very sensitive matter and right up there with SHARPE
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Whoa wait a second here, who wouldn't want to see some of Europe on Uncle's dime ?
I spent two years in Germany, and when I got back to the world if my new unit got orders to go over I would have been saying "Put me on the quartering party!!", I would have been more than happy to put up tents for 10-12 hours a day to get back over.
I spent two years in Germany, and when I got back to the world if my new unit got orders to go over I would have been saying "Put me on the quartering party!!", I would have been more than happy to put up tents for 10-12 hours a day to get back over.
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Usually they end up in a MEB with a separation into the TDRL. They think they've made it, but five years later they get reevaluated and kicked off of disability.
I saw the same thing happen in my last NTC rotation. The day we arrived we already had people sending texts to their spouses threatening suicide. We had so many suicide threats that the EBH people had two or three vehicles running back and forth to the inpatient clinics every day. In that one month we probably had between 30 and 50 people just within the Brigade. There were an equal amount of people with red cross messages from spouses and family members saying they were going to kill themselves, or some uncle had a terminal disease (for the last two years and not expected to die soon).
I saw the same thing happen in my last NTC rotation. The day we arrived we already had people sending texts to their spouses threatening suicide. We had so many suicide threats that the EBH people had two or three vehicles running back and forth to the inpatient clinics every day. In that one month we probably had between 30 and 50 people just within the Brigade. There were an equal amount of people with red cross messages from spouses and family members saying they were going to kill themselves, or some uncle had a terminal disease (for the last two years and not expected to die soon).
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MAJ Byron Oyler
I have spent a good amount of time working and around behavioral health and it is truly becoming the cool kids club, taking assets away from those that truly need it. It will be a real eye opener for people when this country sees a real bad day again and people come calling on them for support.
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When I was serving as a chaplain in the British Army, suicidal ideation was a fast-track ticket out. It is worth noting that a soldier in the British army can quit by giving 1 year's notice. Regarding self-harm and suicidal ideation, they didn't mess around. If a soldier said anything like, "Gee Sarge, I think I'll top myself!" paperwork to separate them would start that day and they'd be on the street within a week. The soldier in question would not be given the opportunity to recant and would be barred from ever serving in the UK military again -- administrative discharge for the good of the service.
The only time this would take longer would be if the person had actually tried to commit suicide. They would be hopsitalized until they were no longer considered a danger to themselves and then -- out!
The only time this would take longer would be if the person had actually tried to commit suicide. They would be hopsitalized until they were no longer considered a danger to themselves and then -- out!
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It sounds hinky. And it is highly likely at least one is malingering, but......
1) Suicide is contagious. (Physchologically, not physiologically.) There is no reason to believe suicidal thoughts can not be, as well.
2) Even if one - or MOST - of these Soldiers are malingering, you have to assume they are not u til you get proof otherwise. Trying to prosecute - or chapter - a Soldier based on malingering when they actually ARE suicidal is a good way to tip them over the edge.
3) If they are, indeed, suicidal, then treatment is the correct answer. They should be in treatment they entire time of deployment.
After about 2-3 months of treatment,, clinicians should be able to tell the "fakers," and discharge them from treatment. Then it can go to the CoC to make determinations for punishment. I have seen this kick back and forth from company through BN to BDE and BDE legal for as much as 3 months while packets are refined and tightened up. For those who are not faking, after 6 months of treatment - or right around the time you guys got back - clinicians should be able to start making recommendations for retention or medical discharge. And THEN the paperwork starts.
No, the automatic assumption should not be chapter. But it should be an option on the table. And because these things are touchy, and because they are hard to verify, there is PROBABLY a lot going on behind the scenes that you are not seeing.
1) Suicide is contagious. (Physchologically, not physiologically.) There is no reason to believe suicidal thoughts can not be, as well.
2) Even if one - or MOST - of these Soldiers are malingering, you have to assume they are not u til you get proof otherwise. Trying to prosecute - or chapter - a Soldier based on malingering when they actually ARE suicidal is a good way to tip them over the edge.
3) If they are, indeed, suicidal, then treatment is the correct answer. They should be in treatment they entire time of deployment.
After about 2-3 months of treatment,, clinicians should be able to tell the "fakers," and discharge them from treatment. Then it can go to the CoC to make determinations for punishment. I have seen this kick back and forth from company through BN to BDE and BDE legal for as much as 3 months while packets are refined and tightened up. For those who are not faking, after 6 months of treatment - or right around the time you guys got back - clinicians should be able to start making recommendations for retention or medical discharge. And THEN the paperwork starts.
No, the automatic assumption should not be chapter. But it should be an option on the table. And because these things are touchy, and because they are hard to verify, there is PROBABLY a lot going on behind the scenes that you are not seeing.
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The leaders should have a meeting with those soldiers and have a critical conversation tegarding expectations as a member of the organization.
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required for success in this unit
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What should happen is treatment and if it is indeed a real issue they would go to a med board. If they get processed and deemed unfit they would be retired and put on TDRL. They would be re-evaluated 5 years later and a lot of times they get downgraded if the issue was short term.
If the individal is found to be fraudulent in their claims there may be some UCMJ action but expecting a chapter may not be realistic depending on what all transpired.
If there were multiple folks all claiming mental health issues and suicidal ideations are the same time there should be an investigation. Either the command has issues or there are a bunch of slackers that need to be hemmed up
If the individal is found to be fraudulent in their claims there may be some UCMJ action but expecting a chapter may not be realistic depending on what all transpired.
If there were multiple folks all claiming mental health issues and suicidal ideations are the same time there should be an investigation. Either the command has issues or there are a bunch of slackers that need to be hemmed up
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