Posted on Mar 25, 2014
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Should EIB be included into Infantry OSUT? Would this better prepare soldiers for taking on the role of being in the Infantry, or is it up to the unit to train the soldier?
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LTC Paul Labrador
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E = Expert. How is someone coming out of OSUT an "expert"....?
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SGT Justin Jarrell
SGT Justin Jarrell
>1 y
However, all the tasks required to pass for EIB are level one tasks. That is why Privates participate in EIB once they get to their units.
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LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
>1 y
SGT Justin Jarrell, and therein is the irony of calling it an "expert" badge. The same goes for the EFMB. The skills are basic medic skills. There is really nothing "expert" about it.
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SSG Pathfinder Instructor
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
I think it should be included, they essentially do the perfect train up anyways. Why not allow them the chance to test prior to reporting to their unit?

Pros: More centralized testing which could easily be overseen by the EIB committee at Benning. Leads to less variability in grading standards.

Allows a young soldier to show up and his gaining unit knows he actually learned something instead of just scraping by.

Less chance of him learning "bad habits" that could mess him up testing later.

Some units have an op tempo that doesn't always allow for train up and testing to occur as often or as well as it should.

Cons: Someone's feelings get hurt when day 1 private shows up with and EIB that others can't/won't go get?
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SSG Brian L.
SSG Brian L.
>1 y
Expert in the technical sense not tactical sense... and if it makes future training easier like team STX because your M249 gunner knows how to correct malfunctions quicker.... why not?
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SGM Retired
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NO! The reasons others have given are sufficient, but there is a point to badges which indicate expertise above and beyond what is expected to pass AIT. The point is to have something to strive for; effort that is well above and beyond what is required. I understand the course has gotten much easier. The first time I went out for it, I was in Wildflecken, Germany. (1975) 120 tried out for it and 6 got it. The second time 60 tried out for it and 3 got the badge, this time including me. Both times I was the very last person to complete that damn ruck run under the time limit.

Unlike being a Jumpmaster (each airborne unit must have a minimal number of Jumpmasters to operate) there is no requirement to have a certain number of EIB holders in an Infantry unit. This and similar badges should always and forever be reserved for those who set their own personal standards well above the minimum requirements.
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SGM Retired
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>1 y
CPT Lawrence Cable I am sure the requirements for the EIB have changed, especially since it no longer has a 5% award rate. Part of the answer should be that the badge requires Expertise. If 80% of the people who try out for it get the badge, doesn't that dilute what it means to be an Expert? After all, isn't that what distinguishes the Expert shooting qualification from Sharpshooter and Marksman?

If a trainee did complete each task in the EIB at OSUT, I wouldn't have a problem with the badge being awarded, although part of the reason for the 5% award rate when I got it is that you were allowed only 1 retry for the entire course. (Not 1 retry per event. 1 retry period.) Expertise isn't measured by retrying an event until you get it right, which is common in Basic training.

Also a number of events weren't taught in Basic. For example, when I got the EIB, it included range estimation, the famed 12 mile ruck march (requiring that you run part of the time to have any chance of completion in 3 hours) and firing the Dragon missile. I'd never even touched a Dragon before picking up one to qualify with it. (I've always been good with weapons, but getting 2 hits out of 3 shots with a weapon you've never touched before is a high mark to reach. I got 3 hits out of 3, the only one to do so.)

I think we need to retain the items which give soldiers something to strive for. Those things which were difficult to achieve are the things we are proud of accomplishing. If it's easy, what pride can you take in it?
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
>1 y
They certainly do train range estimation and have a 12 mile ruck march in Infantry OSUT and familiarize on the AT4, the current replacement for the old Dragon. The standards have not changed much that I know about, one redo per event and three redo's max, expert with your weapon, 80 or more per event in the APFT and the 12 mile ruck. The difference between when you and I were doing this stuff is weapon systems and commo gear. Especially with the push to extend Infantry OSUT to 22 weeks, I would think this would be the time to push those performing soldiers to test for it.
Most of the people here will have to hit Wiki to even know what a Dragon is BTW. I carried that cursed thing for about a year and a half before I decided on OCS. During that whole time, I got to fire one real missile. The rest of the time just the simulators. The real missile is quite a bit harder to track, mainly because the tube is hard to keep aligned when you lose the weight of the missile. Then it had the smoke signature from Hell and when something was in range, so was every weapon on what you would be shooting while you tracked the damn missile to the target.
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SGM Retired
SGM (Join to see)
>1 y
When I took the EIB, they used a simulator, of course. But when I asked for my 3rd shot, after having qualified with the first two, the instructor kicked the launch tube when I pulled the trigger. I still scored. But I was a TOW gunner on active duty, and I was used to the smoke cloud, as well as the distraction of having a heavy missile leave the launch tube. Some General came to Germany and wanted to see a live shot, as as the top gunner in the division, I was picked to shoot it for him. Because of that, I fired two of them in my entire career.

Anyway I still think soldiers should try of the EIB in their own unit, not in OSUT. It is the kind of thing that should be part of building unit esprit de corps.
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
>1 y
SGM Brooks,
I never looked at badging someone was of that much of importance. When I earned the CAB I too thought it was important to had been recognized for the award, but was much more disappointed that I did not receive the CMB! I was assigned to a Civil Affairs unit supposedly working as a Police trainer, but performing medical logistics for Iraqi jails and advising them on standardization of medical care for the inmates. You know it is nice to have the knowledge taught so when in combat one can survive and live to live another day.
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
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Best to leave this as is.....let the EIB be conducted/awarded at the unit level, it's where it belongs.  This is something young Team/Squad and Platoon Leadership work on with their men to gain proficiency on necessary skills and tasks, really allows the leadership to understand the strengths & weaknesses of the men within their charge.....keep this tradition with the unit, it does not belong in TRADOC!

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