Posted on Apr 4, 2016
Should it be easier to give a demotion due to history inefficiency or poor performance?
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We have an automatic promotion system in the early stages in the military. Sometimes soldiers promote far too fast. If there continually fail at this new position shouldn't a demotion be an option to correct the situation?
Personally I have seen soldiers that were far out of their level of competency. They may have been a great person in all but you can tell they are out of their league. After multiple attempts of mentoring and counseling have failed shouldn't a demotion be as simple as a promotion. Especially in the case when a subordinate leader is doing their job? I have seen a junior soldier put in charge of NCO that out ranks them due to the inability of the Senior NCOs ability to lead. It's not ideal but what options are left?
Have you dealt with this or seen this take place?
Personally I have seen soldiers that were far out of their level of competency. They may have been a great person in all but you can tell they are out of their league. After multiple attempts of mentoring and counseling have failed shouldn't a demotion be as simple as a promotion. Especially in the case when a subordinate leader is doing their job? I have seen a junior soldier put in charge of NCO that out ranks them due to the inability of the Senior NCOs ability to lead. It's not ideal but what options are left?
Have you dealt with this or seen this take place?
Promotions
Rank
Leadership
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 38
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I'd say it's already pretty easy if you use the proper channels. If you use progressive counseling and rate them honestly and fairly, it is a slam dunk to demote them if that's what needs to be done. I'll be 100% honest; I have seriously messed up before, and my stripe was threatened. My supervisor had regular feedbacks with me and used progressive counseling, kept everything zipped up tight and kept every record of it, and Legal straight up told her that if my Commander wanted a stripe, all's he had to do was say the word. Luckily my Commander gave me one last shot, and I did everything I could to dig myself back to the top, which I did and I gotta say I am a LOT better as an NCO and a person for it. But it demonstrated that as long as you do everything the way you need to and keep good records, you can take a stripe with relative ease if that's what really needs to be done.
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If you consistently fail in corporate America, you loose your job. Period. And they don't have to give you a reason often times. The entitlement attitude of "I just got promoted and therefore don't have to perform" has to stop. The problem often times is quantifying ones performance and documenting it properly.
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Better said than done. No one wants to get demoted. As a leader, we are trained to reach down and touch the soul of our subordinate. The trick is knowing your troops and building on their strengths and shoring up their weakness. The easiest thing to do is give up. I remember I stayed the same rank for two years. And I stayed in trouble every day. And if I was not in trouble I was on sick call. I had a MSG that looked at me one day and said I know actually what you need. And guess what it was responsibility. From the day he put me in charge and gradually added responsibility to me. I rose up to every occasion. I went from PFC to SP4 in three months. Made SGT E-5 in two months. Then move to NCOIC Communication center at Brigade. Became the Brigade Cmdr personal driver. From there OCS. At that point, I realized I could make it in the Army but did not know about civilian life. What we forget is most of us need someone to believe in us. And not just evaluated us as pieces on a chess board. You are only as strong as the men you command. My greatest asset was being able to think outside the box when need but understanding the box had a purpose also. Before you demote or put a fellow soldier away. As this question if it was me what would I want someone to do for me. Our men and women are not stepping stones to get you somewhere but they are your team that you need to know they have your back 100%. Let me say I will never forget the guys I served with and I will not forget your service. Thanks again and keep pressing forward!!
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Sir, I have never seen nor heard of a junior Soldier taking charge of there senior under any circumstance, it is legally impossible. If the NCO is incompetent he or she is moved out of position by command and dealt with under corrective training or UCMJ. So whichever CSM and or officer allowed this they were delinquent in their duties. The first thing I would challenge you and your organization with is to retrain that young leader, NCO or Officer. Someone in that COC recommended that NCO, who's fault is it that they are not prepared, the Plt. Sgt. and Plt. Leader (maybe), I think so. You mention automatic promotion, NCO's are not automatic as you say, however through Major, Officers are. I notice that you focus on the incompetence of NCO's I am sure you as an Officer have never seen and incompetent officer. There are ways to remove and demote incompetent NCO's and Officers. I encourage you to read the regulations, there is a process through which an NCO can be reduced without UCMJ, I have been out for a while but I believe it is an Administrative Reduction Board (not to be done lightly), I have presided over a few.
I will tell you that in 31 years of service I have seen my fare share of incompetence in both structures, I challenged myself to what I am challenging you with, do the research speak to the next level of command and take action. This action in particular requires the promotion authority to take action, in the case of an E5/E6 that is a Battalion Cdr. and CSM. For an incompetent Officer, once appropriately counseled Company Grade (such as yourself) is determined by Bn Command and Field Grade by BDE CMD, the General Officer can reserve all rights for Officers as the CM Convening Authority.
Again I have been out for over 5 years, but you get the point! Lead from the front means taking responsibility for your actions and those you are appointed over.
Thank you CSM (R) Darieus A. ZaGara
I will tell you that in 31 years of service I have seen my fare share of incompetence in both structures, I challenged myself to what I am challenging you with, do the research speak to the next level of command and take action. This action in particular requires the promotion authority to take action, in the case of an E5/E6 that is a Battalion Cdr. and CSM. For an incompetent Officer, once appropriately counseled Company Grade (such as yourself) is determined by Bn Command and Field Grade by BDE CMD, the General Officer can reserve all rights for Officers as the CM Convening Authority.
Again I have been out for over 5 years, but you get the point! Lead from the front means taking responsibility for your actions and those you are appointed over.
Thank you CSM (R) Darieus A. ZaGara
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Thanks for the feedback. Luckily this doesn't relate to my current organization. I have been fortunate to work with some of the finest NCOs the Army has to offer. But in the past two soldiers really come to mind. One was an SGT. I got him as a fresh SGT. I worked to develop him the best I could. At that point I was a squad leader. But he just didn't get it. I even broke it down to skill level 1 before I started to work with skill level 2 stuff. He just didn't seem capable of comprehending what I was putting out. I was a bit taken back. This was my first case dealing with this. But this went on for quite a while. I would see improvement and then he would rescind into his old ways. We were about to deploy. We were being evaluated on a tactical task. My PSG went down so I stepped up to be the acting PSG which meant he was acting squad leader. (My other TL was a reclass and he was still developing also). But when he failed to charge of the squad which resulted in a soldier being assessed KIA due to being separated from the squad when the this TL reported that he was all accounted for I had it. I went to the PSG and basically stated I have no confidence in his abilities and at this point he should be well beyond the level he is preforming at. I took an ass chewing but the TL was pulled from my squad. He was sent to another squad to where he was pulled out from the platoon due to an integrity issue while in country. I didn't know what exactly happened but they felt he wasn't capable of being a TL anymore. He was sent to the TOC. In a situation like this he was afforded the opportunity to improve. I will just say that some people just aren't meant for some tasks. I worked in retail management in the past. I was wrote up once for poor performance. I agreed with them. It just didn't click with this like it did others. But I walked into the position without any retail experience. Knowing this I left retail and went into the security industry. Where I was much more well suited.
I would agree that officers are much the same way. I only speak of NCOs due to my lack of having any subordinate officers under my care. I have seen some that I have questioned but I don't know the case in which they are being developed. The one case in which I have seen was the PL I had while the incident I had with the NCO. He was not what you expect of an infantry officer. He was relieved before the deployment due to the lack of confidence the commander had in him. I can say it was a relief to many of us.
I would agree that officers are much the same way. I only speak of NCOs due to my lack of having any subordinate officers under my care. I have seen some that I have questioned but I don't know the case in which they are being developed. The one case in which I have seen was the PL I had while the incident I had with the NCO. He was not what you expect of an infantry officer. He was relieved before the deployment due to the lack of confidence the commander had in him. I can say it was a relief to many of us.
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CSM Darieus ZaGara
Thank you sir, for your service. The Guard and Reserve face additional challenges that are associated with the very nature of combining Service, Civilian Life, Competing loyalty's etc. The regs. support all of us. For you and your command you are also very limited by time. Keep up the good fight, I have deployed with both Guard and Reserves and in the fight there is no difference. Thank you all!!!
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I think the Lt that wrote this should be demoted back to fifth grade as he can not spell, uses improper sentence structure, and incorrect words.
In his experience? How many years has an Lt actually been in the military any way? How many troops has he been charged with? Perhaps the problem is not with his troops, but with his bad leadership.
In his experience? How many years has an Lt actually been in the military any way? How many troops has he been charged with? Perhaps the problem is not with his troops, but with his bad leadership.
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SrA Paul Pfeil - It is a real thing in the military. You couldn't imagine being a 2LT after having been in the army for 10 years.
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SrA Paul Pfeil
Try A Writer's Reference, by Diana Hacker; or Rules For Writer's , by Diana Hacker. Perhaps it will help with the writing skills, so no one will ever accuse you of poor performance again.
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