Posted on Jan 27, 2014
1SG Platoon Sergeant
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<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">I PCS’d last week on the same day that my new BC declared
that EVERY Squad Leader will now be rated by the Platoon Leader, NOT the
Platoon Sergeant. So now every single E5 or E6 serving in a Squad Leader
position rating scheme is as follows: Rater – PL, Senior Rater – Company Commander,
Reviewer – Battalion Commander. </font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">This is the first I’ve heard of this (I was in my last unit
4 years so maybe things outside of my unit changed and I missed it) so I’m wondering
is this something that is starting to spread around elsewhere?</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>I FEEL that by
removing the PSG from the rating scheme we (as NCOs) are surrendering that
power over to officers. For years I’ve witnessed the struggles between O’s and
E’s where one side wants to be more hands on while the other side tries harder
to pull it away. I also FEEL that it’s taking an extremely valuable piece of
professional development from those Platoon Sergeants. I have more than 12
months rated PSG time prior to coming here in which I rated numerous different
Squad Leaders and that’s truly the time I learned the most about NCOERs and quarterly
counselings.</font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">I can go on and on about how I feel about the subject. But I
just want to know if this is something that’s sweeping through the ranks or if
this is an isolated event taking place where I am now?</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font>
Posted in these groups: 1efa5058 NCOER130329 a xx000 001 Senior Rater
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Responses: 12
SFC James Baber
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I have a serious issue with placing a 1LT, possibly even a 2LT into an immediate rater position when most may have only a year or two of experience and even less knowledge of that SLs job or what is the learning curve or progression of that SL professionally. And to remove any and all NCO leadership from the rating scheme is not fair to the junior NCO for mentoring and progression of training by a senior NCO for that SMs future.


I completely disagree with this action and would be very surprised that the CSM would be or was in agreement of this policy, while they don't write them, they do advise on them. It doesn't sound to copasetic to me along what I have seen, done or even assisted with over my career. 

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SFC William Swartz Jr
SFC William Swartz Jr
>1 y

It is events like this that have always pissed me off when I hear that "We NCOs are giving up our power...." etc, I never, in the 26 years I served, ever heard of any PSG not rating the SLs, or in tanker terms, the TCs. I as the tank PSG rated the 2 other TCs as well as the PLs gunner and mine while the PL served as the Sr Rater and the CO as the reviewer. I, as the PSG, was the SME of the tank platoon, the PL was normally a fresh out of the schoolhouse individual that knew very little about how to tank, it was my job along with the commander to teach this youngin how to tank and to lead the platoon. Believe me, having taught ABOLC for the final 2 1/2 years, when they leave to go to their units they are just as raw as Soldiers leaving OSUT/AIT, in short they don't know shit!

I am sorry that this has happened to you, but am glad I do not have to worry about experiencing this myself.

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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y
The 1SG...
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y
Most units I have been assigned to had the 1SG rating the PSG's. I was just answering your question. I know it differs from unit to unit, but its one route.
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SFC William Swartz Jr
SFC William Swartz Jr
11 y
PL always rated the PSG, with the CO as Sr Rater and BN/SQDN CDR as reviewer.
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SGM Operations Sergeant Major
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There are two major things to look at here, regardless of personal opinion.

" A rating chain is established by the CDR, commandant, or leader of an organization and maintained by rating officials to provide the best evaluation of an individual Soldier’s performance and potential. A rating chain also ties the rated Soldier’s performance to a specific senior or subordinate relationship. This allows for proper counseling to develop the rated Soldier and accomplish the mission. These functions are normally best achieved within an organization’s chain of command or supervision."


This is important because it is the commanders decision as long as rater requirements are adhered to.

" Rater requirements. The rater will normally be the immediate supervisor of the rated Soldier responsible for directing and assessing the rated Soldier’s performance. The rater will normally be senior to the rated Soldier in grade or date of rank. CDRs will normally rate CDRs. Civilian raters for OERs and NCOERs will be designated as official supervisors on the established rating scheme."

AR 623-3 says the rater can be Chain of Command OR Chain of Supervision.

With all the formalities being presented aside, there are some things to take into consideration. If the Commander so chooses to have that young Platoon Leader rate his Squad Leaders that is is prerogative. It is that Platoon Sergeants job to ensure that he is providing sound guidance and mentorship to the platoon leader during the evaluation process. It is that Platoon Sergeants job to ensure that the Platoon Leader is rating that Soldier fairly and with his peers. He is the senior enlisted adviser to that PL  he is also responsible for ensuring that the evaluation is fair and impartial and base on facts not opinion. 

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MAJ Laurie H.
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I haven't seen this where I am in the National Guard, and sincerely hope I don't. I quite honestly don't feel like I was equipped to properly rate my Squad Leaders during my first year as a PL. It took my a couple months to figure out what I was supposed to be doing, let alone what they should be doing, what they were doing, and how I was supposed to develop them as junior leaders. I think it would have been pretty unfair to them for me to rate my squad leaders after 5 months (10 days. TEN) of solid training time with them when my PSG had been working with them for 3-4 years.
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Should Platoon Sergeants be removed from Squad Leader’s Rating Scheme?
CW2 Joseph Evans
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The Chain of Command has always been Squad Leader - Platoon Leader... The PSG is part of the Chain of Concern and has no place in the rating scheme.&nbsp;<div>That being said, the PSG should be very involved in making sure the PL provides a fair and accurate NCOER for the Squad leaders to be rated. This is the same way that 1SG provides guidance on how PSGs are rated and CSMs on the rating of 1SGs.</div><div><br></div>
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CW2 Joseph Evans
CW2 Joseph Evans
>1 y
Robert, <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; You may want to review your Army study guide. The PSG is not, nor has ever been in the Chain of Command. As to the responsibility for the NCOER, that is what this discussion is about. For the squad leader, this could go with either the PSG or the PL, depending on the will of the Command. There is adequate justification for either position, but since the NCO support Channel is separate but supports the Chain of Command, the PSG and PL should work closely on the SL's NCOER regardless, since the SL is one of the few positions with a responsibility in both the COC and the NCO Support Channel.<br>http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/chain_of_command/chain-of-command-list.shtml<br><br><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.armystudyguide.com/images/icons/feed-icon.gif"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/chain_of_command/chain-of-command-list.shtml">Chain of Command List (ArmyStudyGuide.com)</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">ArmyStudyGuide.com provide extensive information about Chain of Command List (ArmyStudyGuide.com)</div></div><div style="clear:both"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>
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SGT 94 E Radio Comsec Repairer
SGT (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG Williams, here's the reference that states that a Soldier's immediate supervisor is in his chain of command.  A Soldier's first-line is the only NCO in both his Chain of Command and NCO Support Channel.


FM 7-22.7

2-22. Command authority is the authority leaders have over soldiers by virtue of rank or assignment. Command authority originates with the President and may be supplemented by law or regulation. Even though it is called “command” authority, it is not limited to officers – you have command authority inherent in your leadership position as a tank commander or team leader, for example. Noncommissioned officers’ command authority is inherent with the job by virtue of position to direct or control soldiers.


There's more in paragraph 2-23, but 2-22 is the reference Army Study Guide is referring to.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
CW2 Joseph Evans
>1 y
SSG Williams,
  Getting into semantics here. The PSG is the mentor for the PL. PL is first in the Squad Leader's Chain of Command. Where as the PSG is the SL's senior in the NCO Support Channel. Chain of Command is the channel through which Command Authority travels and as such takes precedence over the NCO Support Channel in determining who has primary responsibility when supervising and assessing the performance and actions of the Squad Leader.
  Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me whether the PL or the PSG is doing the rating as long as the NCO is being dealt with fairly and receiving an appropriate evaluation and professional development. At the end of the day, it is at the Commander's discretion who is in a Soldier's Chain of Command, NCO Support Channel and in his rating scheme. I have seen it done both ways, and it has been both effective and ineffective both ways. A smart Soldier writes his own regardless of the scheme, failing that, they are very involved in the drafting.
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MSG Zac Walton
MSG Zac Walton
>1 y
Non-Comissioned officers are also officers, just not RLOs.....They are in fact in the chain of command at the team leader level and potentially at the squad leader level. If however a SPC is placed in a TL position, he is now also in the chain of command, which is why the rank of Corporal was born.
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SFC Thomas Butler
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I'm doubting that the BCT level CSM was or is aware of this BC's policy. And I'm doubting it will last after he or she is made aware.
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1SG Platoon Sergeant
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It's been 10 months since I posted this. In October we had a change of responsibility; effective November PSGs are now rating Squad Leaders again. So eleven months after the day I initially met aid NCOs I have officially conducted initial counselings and started their support forms.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
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A bit off topic, but why do folks keep referring to PSG? My understanding is the rank went away a while back. Are there still some around that have not been promoted or retired yet. I know that was the case when Tech Sergeant became SFC/PSG we had some Tech Sergeants that hung around a while as E-6s, just as we had MSG/1SG E-7s for a while.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
11 y
Thanks, so even though the rank of PSG (E-7 in an 11 series MOS) was eliminated, they are still called a PSG, even though now a SFC.
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CW4 Keith Dolliver
CW4 Keith Dolliver
11 y
That's correct, sir. Similiar to writing CDR or XO, you're referring to a position, regardless of rank. PSG is just a position, but even though it is MTOE'd for an E-7, it is not uncommon to find an E-6 filling that slot so this is an easy way to refer to the individual holding the slot regardless of what their rank may be.
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SSG Retired!!!
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Weird, but if that's the way the command team wants to run it, its their baby.
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1LT Infantry Officer
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Question: is this in an IBCT? Outside of the combat arms world, there are no SLs by MTOE. Don't get it twisted, the one E-6 two E-5 per squad sized section still exists. Those NCOs serve as team leaders and squad leaders as additional duty. However, they're rated via an OIC for their section in their MTOE paragraph. Hell, I'm used to the PL rating the PSG, the CO the 1SG, the BC the CSM, and so on. If the PL can rate the platoon daddy, then he can rate squad leaders as well.
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SFC A.M. Drake
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AR 600-20 Army Command Policy states this:








1–5. Command


a. Privilege to command. Command is exercised by virtue of office and the special assignment of members of the
United States Armed Forces holding military grade who are eligible to exercise command. A commander is, therefore,
a commissioned or WO who, by virtue of grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military
organization or prescribed territorial area that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a "command." The
privilege to command is not limited solely by branch of Service except as indicated in chapter 2. A civilian, other than
the President as Commander-in-Chief (or National Command Authority), may not exercise command. However, a
civilian may be designated to exercise general supervision over an Army installation or activity (for example, Dugway
Proving Ground).


b. Elements of command. The key elements of command are authority and responsibility. Formal authority for
command is derived from the policies, procedures, and precedents presented in chapters 1 through 3.


c. Characteristics of command leadership. The commander is responsible for establishing leadership climate of the
unit and developing disciplined and cohesive units. This sets the parameters within which command will be exercised
and, therefore, sets the tone for social and duty relationships within the command. Commanders are also responsible for setting the training of subordinates.




For us in recruiting this came as a surprise to us when it started to happen a few years ago 






 





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TSgt Hh 60 G Maintainer
TSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
SFC Drake:

Command and the Rating Chain are not necessarily the same thing.  A rated NCO is rated by whoever is that NCO's first-line supervisor, who has initially counseled that NCO, and counsels the NCO on a quarterly basis.

While a 2LT/1LT has the AUTHORITY to rate a Squad Leader, does that that lieutenant have the experience to counsel and rate a NCO?

We as NCOs talk about "Sergeant's Business" and the delineation between that and Officer Business.  This new directive effectively blurs that line.  How can an Officer mentor a NCO?  Two worlds collide...

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MSG Talent Management Nco
MSG (Join to see)
>1 y

SGT Unger, when asking how can an Officer mentor a NCO? I pose the question to you in reverse, how can a NCO (PSG) mentor an Officer (PL)?  There is a term that I really agree with which is "Leaders business" because that PSG should know just as much about an OER as he does about a NCOER, or an ORB the same as an ERB.  How can a NCO (PSG) mentor that young Officer (PL) if he doesn't know DA PAM 600-3 as well as he know DA PAM 600-25?

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SFC A.M. Drake
SFC A.M. Drake
>1 y
SSG Graves,

I see you understand where I'm coming from. I think the regs has always been there, we just have not been following it as directed. Again that was definitely not the way I came into the Army, but I will always adapt and overcome, afterall we are all veterans when we retire.
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