Posted on May 28, 2016
Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?
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I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?
Atheism
Ceremony
Religion
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 102
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To put this in perspective, let me ask the following...If someone doesn't believe any form of "god" exists, and therefore, rather than feeling "their god" is being left out, merely doesn't want to be asked to "play along"...why isn't just allowing someone to quietly abstain from prayer acceptable? If a Taoist or follower of kali doesn't want to pray to the Judeo-Christan God...then maybe there's an argument...but I just don't see how anyone who claims no particular faith would be "bothered" by the open practice of those who do. The atheists or agnostics in the "room" are welcome to offer their counter-arguments...but hopefully "you" can see why "we" sometimes think the objections are simply part of an effort to remove or limit our practices as much as possible? If that's true...why is this so important to "you"?
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LCDR (Join to see)
MSgt-The crucial point is simply this-define how the practice of faith "harms" someone without faith. For example: I do not believe in "ghosts"...but neither am I threatened, nor do I feel some great impulse to restrain those who do from sharing their stories. If someone wants me to participate in a seance...I'll respectfully decline. So long as they don't begin to judge me in a professional sense because of my "lack of faith"...I don't see a problem. What I think myself and many other Christians are confused by is why simply offering a prayer or quoting a scripture passage presents a problem.
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CW3 Stephen Mills
Atheist are a weird bunch. they are the only group that I can think of that gets together to talk about something they don't believe in. The flat earth society gets together to talk about why they believe the earth is flat. The rest of us don't get together to talk about how stupid they are for believing the earth is flat.
Atheist are having a rally right now called "The Reason Rally" where they get together and talk about why god doesn't exist. I'm not sure if its a rally to make themselves feel superior or if its a rally to try and keep convincing themselves God doesn't exist. Either way, Atheism is clearly their "religion" of choice.
Atheist are having a rally right now called "The Reason Rally" where they get together and talk about why god doesn't exist. I'm not sure if its a rally to make themselves feel superior or if its a rally to try and keep convincing themselves God doesn't exist. Either way, Atheism is clearly their "religion" of choice.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
LCDR (Join to see) - I don't see how it harms you to be respectful to others by not harassing them with your illegitimately privileged public prayer. Does your god not hear you unless you inflict your prayers on those who have no choice but to be present? Was there some "divine revelation" which nullifies the crystal-clear biblical order in Matthew 6:5-6? No one will ever know, or be bothered, or care if you pray silently. But that's the problem, right? You have to vocalize it in compulsory attendance, because otherwise they wouldn't know you're praying, and you can't stand that.
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LCDR (Join to see)
MSgt-The very fact that you consider prayer to be "harassment" makes it impossible to make any further point on the subject.
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Nobody is forcing you to pray publicly. What it sounds like though is you are trying to force people not to pray publicly.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
No, no one is saying that you cannot pray publicly. BUT, it is a slap in the face to say that these moments of prayer and inflection are meant to include all religions. If that was so, it would be lead by a different religious leader every time, that or all religions would be represented. They are not. It is a Christian pastor, or father leading a prayer. Once again, you can do it, just not as part of an official program or ceremony. Gather there in the foyer and pray away. I will support you 100%.
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The Establishment Clause bans no such thing, and to suggest the First Amendment prohibits you, I or anyone else from exercising a fundamental and pre-existing right (or not) illustrates a continued ignorance of what it really means. The First Amendment only prohibits the Government from mandating a religious denomination (i.e. Church of England), and banning other faiths. What you are suggesting (banning in any form) only violates that basic right by picking winners and losers. It would be hard to believe that being in the presence of an invocation will cause you injury. If you are an atheist, you don't believe in a higher being anyway so don't bow your head. You should not tolerate your government forcing you to do so, or by abstaining from it.
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When things slow down, rely on this to come up again to stimulate the masses. Why the **** can't we just live and let live?
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I'm an atheist myself, but I don't have a problem with religious expression. It's an inescapable part of our culture, whether you buy into it or not. Someone who is sceptical is a "Doubting Thomas." Someone who throws you under the bus is a "Judas." When Chaps does the invocation at a change-of-command, no-one really gives a shit what he's saying. You just bow your head like it's a drill movement. No-one is really joining Chaps in imploring the sky-daddy to grant wisdom to the new C.O. or protect their crops from blight or whatever. They're just wondering if the Sergeant Major is going to finish running his mouth before someone passes out.
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Oh please..................I don't even want to debate with you intelligibly because it's all about personal bias... Just because you don't believe in GOD or a GOD, doesn't mean the majority of people serving alongside you don't... enough of this anti-GOD crap. You can be an atheist and still have respect for others beliefs, and not have to challenge them...
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I just don't understand why everyone is so easily offended or prone to get the feeling hurt. Just put on your big boy pants and suck it up. Most prayers offered at these types of functions take less time than it did for you to type this question. So you get inconvenienced, big deal. Typing this response is two minutes that I'll never get back. Now I'm inconvenienced
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I understand where you are coming from but the fact remains that the Atheists are few and the Christians out number the Atheists...seems making a rule that favors the few isn't a good way to bring about unit cohesion. I'm a member of a 12 step group and we routinely pray in our meetings, but the atheists just remain silent or say their own affirmation...no one complains because we are there for a primary purpose. Could it be the military needs to look for the primary purpose (unit cohesion) and NOT individual rights?
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SMSgt John Clifford
MSgt Stump, yes. That is exactly how it is supposed to work in our Republic. Try reading, We the people..."
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You are not forced to pray. Hearing someone pray does not violate your rights
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
SrA Casey Ross - The government is the one that is involved in this matter. Or would you say that the US military is not a function of government?
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
I recommend you all familiarize yourselves with the Constitution and military regulations.
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SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres
SMSgt John Clifford - I agree with that statement.... it's getting rather annoying.
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Seems like everything would be banned if it were up to individuals and their sensitivities. I never understood why atheists are so worked up about something they don't believe in. It is funny to think how so many folks twist issues. Everyone wants to change history...Christianity was an engrained part of military life years before it was just cool to be an atheist and flip out because someone was offended or butt hurt over something that should not even matter due to a non-belief.
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MSG (Join to see)
I have to caveat above after reading with this due to error of writing...Jew and Islam men and women have fought with America and as Americans but the founding fathers based our nation long ago on Christian beliefs....
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CW3 Stephen Mills
MSgt Jonathan Stump -
Sure, I will do you one better. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all praying to the same GOD. The God of Abraham; so I fail to see your problem with a prayer to the "Christian" God.
Near as I can tell its only Atheist who have problems with prayer, so lets not pretend its for the sake of the other Judeo-Christian religions.
Sure, I will do you one better. Jews, Christians and Muslims are all praying to the same GOD. The God of Abraham; so I fail to see your problem with a prayer to the "Christian" God.
Near as I can tell its only Atheist who have problems with prayer, so lets not pretend its for the sake of the other Judeo-Christian religions.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
You would be incorrect, we can get into this at a later time, but once again, do Wiccans pray to that same god? Do hindu's? How about the not unitarians? And what if it is only atheists that have a problem with the prayer? If I do not want it in my ceremony, and does not have a secular reason, it fails that establishment clause. Remove it or have it before in another ceremony that is optional to attend.
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MSG (Join to see)
The only thing I can find an agreement with is...If an individual does not wish to have prayer of any sort at a event meant to honor him/her, then said indidivual has a right to not include in their particular honor. If the event encompasses more than one individual, the righ of one individual should not trump the right of another. Isn't the military supposed to be open diverse crowd according to ever EO training I have participated in. It seems to be an impass since many believe ones religious freedom should be inferior to their secular views. I stick with my beliefs that atheists (non religion) wish to subdue and press the issue that their rights trump all. Go figure, a group that doesn't believe in the God, wishes to suppress and oppress those that do.
Everyone wants one side to respect their wishes but is unwilling to bend in to their point of view. Either way, I disagree and consider my point of view correct...Great thing about America is we can do that without concern...most of the times.
Everyone wants one side to respect their wishes but is unwilling to bend in to their point of view. Either way, I disagree and consider my point of view correct...Great thing about America is we can do that without concern...most of the times.
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