Posted on Jun 25, 2016
Should PT standards be neutral across the board?
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Responses: 47
I wouldn't do a job specific PT standard because then you get fat desk jockeys and buff war fighters. But yes, PT standards need to be neutral across the board. No more "opting out" of certain requirements. If we're going to open up combat MOS to females, then all females need to be held to the same standards as their male counterparts. Even with the transgender argument, should a male be allowed a pass on his poor PT performance because he says "I identify...". We've been downsizing our military force for the past couple years, so those that remain in need to be held to the same high standard regardless of whether they are male/female or identify as something else.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
I don't disagree with you, but if females are going to move into an MOS where their survival and the survival of their fellow Marines depend on the physical strength for combat, or putting a 200 lb casualty in a fireman's carry, they have to be able to meet those physical requirements. If you can't do it, you are asking your fellow Marines to accept dying so that people can 'break down barriers'. That's not right. The 50 year old Marines don't go out on the forced marches to patrol and rarely are put in the battle. But if you are young and especially if you are in the grunts you definitely will be put in the battle and you owe it you the Marine beside you to be able to do everything they can do to survive.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sgt Tammy Wallace - Then why not keep the buff old people and well tell the fat ones it is time to look for new work. Everyone will at one point or another come to the point that they cant do this any more be that at 30 or at 60 it will happen to the best of us some day.
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Sgt Tammy Wallace
Sgt Joseph Baker - I don't disagree with that...and those 125 lb soaking wet grunt males need to be able to fireman carry a 200 lb casualty as well...agreed?
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They should be more focused on real-world events. Every test measures endurance. What about strength, mobility, and technique? There are many Service Members that don't understand how to do a proper fireman carry.
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TSgt Jamie Boylan
But that is still a PT standard that has to be met. Physical training is not just about running, push ups, sit ups and pull ups.
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SGT (Join to see)
TSgt Jamie Boylan - I'm not sure what you're trying to say in regards to what I said.
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TSgt Jamie Boylan
What I am saying is simply this, meeting real world standard for real world events is still a Physical Fitness standard. You have to pick that 170 lb dummy and drag him 100 yards by his LBE in 30 second. That is a PT standard. You have to pick up that 170 lb dummy and fireman's carry it 100 yards in 40 second. Another standard. They are PT standards, just not what we are use to. I agree with what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that we need to change the way we think about PT and what the standards are. PT also involves fireman's carrying someone, dragging someone to safety, etc. What ever the services decide, because essentially the basic PT standard should be thinking about you having to carry your buddy to safety as an example. You with me now?
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If one's goal is truly equality and recognizing that there is a basic minimum level of fitness ability for all those accessioning into and/or serving in the armed forces, regardless of job, age, or sex, then yes, of course they should. In short, there are no merit-based reasons to oppose it, only emotional ones. If this means having a military that is only comprised of 1% females or one that accepts many more heretofore screened-out males, then so be it.
Perhaps a simple pass/fail would be required to create an individual service-wide acceptable test which would push the option of more stringent standards or goals down to individual branches and/or units (ie while the USA may have a simple p/f test at level X the 82nd Airborne of Infantry branch may require a higher Y (but not lower) for the same p/f test). It undermines the age = sex argument and removes the need for scales, simplifying the test.
The case of age barely holds up and withers under any scrutiny. As with sex, one's age doesn't correlate to one's job or even experience level. We should expect the same of a 40 year old PFC as we should from an 18 year old one. An age-specific scale merely acts as patronizing head patting or "atta boy". We understand that a 48 year old general or MSG will probably not perform at the level of 20 year old SPC; we don't need to inflate their score to make them feel better about getting older.
I don't support the idea of job specific tests for three reasons. 1. It adds a level of bureaucracy to an institution already burgeoning with it. 2. It ignores the multi-MOS/branch composition of units even at the battalion level, setting up multiple standards of performance in units striving for excellence or a common standard. 3. It obviates the principle of everyone being an infantryman first (at least for the USA and USMC).
Exceptions probably should be made for those on physical profile on the principle that a trained experienced soldier/sailor/airman/marine who is physically incapable of performing the minimum is outweighed by the cost of replacing him. Also, it is arguable that those specialized branches in which one can accession directly into armed forces from civilian life, are usually in need, and are typically limited in command opportunities (ie doctors, lawyers, chaplains) would have their own standard. Then again, one could argue there is not need for service-specific medical officers, JAGs or chaplains, but that's a different ball of wax.
Perhaps a simple pass/fail would be required to create an individual service-wide acceptable test which would push the option of more stringent standards or goals down to individual branches and/or units (ie while the USA may have a simple p/f test at level X the 82nd Airborne of Infantry branch may require a higher Y (but not lower) for the same p/f test). It undermines the age = sex argument and removes the need for scales, simplifying the test.
The case of age barely holds up and withers under any scrutiny. As with sex, one's age doesn't correlate to one's job or even experience level. We should expect the same of a 40 year old PFC as we should from an 18 year old one. An age-specific scale merely acts as patronizing head patting or "atta boy". We understand that a 48 year old general or MSG will probably not perform at the level of 20 year old SPC; we don't need to inflate their score to make them feel better about getting older.
I don't support the idea of job specific tests for three reasons. 1. It adds a level of bureaucracy to an institution already burgeoning with it. 2. It ignores the multi-MOS/branch composition of units even at the battalion level, setting up multiple standards of performance in units striving for excellence or a common standard. 3. It obviates the principle of everyone being an infantryman first (at least for the USA and USMC).
Exceptions probably should be made for those on physical profile on the principle that a trained experienced soldier/sailor/airman/marine who is physically incapable of performing the minimum is outweighed by the cost of replacing him. Also, it is arguable that those specialized branches in which one can accession directly into armed forces from civilian life, are usually in need, and are typically limited in command opportunities (ie doctors, lawyers, chaplains) would have their own standard. Then again, one could argue there is not need for service-specific medical officers, JAGs or chaplains, but that's a different ball of wax.
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TSgt Jamie Boylan
I see where you are coming from, but one question about your MOS specific PT tests. You believe a Maj as yourself who is HR officer (42B) should have the same PT requirements as a Maj who is assigned to a Special Forces Group as a Special Forces Officer (18A)?
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MAJ Bill Darling
TSgt Jamie Boylan Former AG guy, but good question. As I mentioned, I'm not a fan of MOS specific tests, but if the DoD has them, I believe there should be a baseline minimum, assuming there is commonality across (at least) the particular service branch.
So, to answer your question, yes, I think that an AG soldier should meet the same minimums of of all soldiers in the Army, regardless of age or rank. If an organization (e.g. branch/MOS, school, unit, etc) wants to have a higher standard for its maximums, and have regulatory authority over the fitness standards of that organization, then it should.
I can see why SF would want to have higher minimums than the rest of the Army, and that may very well work in the relatively small SOF community, but I think it's problematic for the basic branches. My first assignment was in a separate air assault battalion. The vast majority are infantry guys but there are cooks, mechanics, clerks, medical personnel, chemical officers, etc. As a platoon leader could I justify punishing and/or separating (at least from the infantry but possibly the Army) SPC X when he does not meet the requirement of his workout buddy, PV2 Y who happens to be the colonel's driver and performs below X's level yet is retained (or possibly recognized positively) just because he's a mechanic?
Incidentally that is how I phrased the question to my female classmates regarding male/female differences and, to their credit, they acknowledged this paradox.
So, to answer your question, yes, I think that an AG soldier should meet the same minimums of of all soldiers in the Army, regardless of age or rank. If an organization (e.g. branch/MOS, school, unit, etc) wants to have a higher standard for its maximums, and have regulatory authority over the fitness standards of that organization, then it should.
I can see why SF would want to have higher minimums than the rest of the Army, and that may very well work in the relatively small SOF community, but I think it's problematic for the basic branches. My first assignment was in a separate air assault battalion. The vast majority are infantry guys but there are cooks, mechanics, clerks, medical personnel, chemical officers, etc. As a platoon leader could I justify punishing and/or separating (at least from the infantry but possibly the Army) SPC X when he does not meet the requirement of his workout buddy, PV2 Y who happens to be the colonel's driver and performs below X's level yet is retained (or possibly recognized positively) just because he's a mechanic?
Incidentally that is how I phrased the question to my female classmates regarding male/female differences and, to their credit, they acknowledged this paradox.
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Within a service, the standards should be the same because, for example, every Marine is subject to being assigned combat duty as a grunt. In the Air Force, we'd apply the same thinking. Making certain accommodations within a service based on sex, age, etc., should not detract from the mission. So if we keep mission in mind and the requirements around that, the fitness standards should fall in line.
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I think the only variant on pt requirements should be for age and height. Age is obviously, and a 5'3" person shouldn't have to run as fast as a 6'6" person. Height should also possibly affect sit ups.
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LTJG (Join to see)
As a runner, height doesn't work like that. Some of the fastest runners I know are short. Watch some of the Olympic track meets. There are guys who could play for the NBA and guys who are barely 5 foot, all world class.
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I have said this for years, PT standards should be the same for both genders as we are all expected to do the same basic job in the military.
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This should have happened a long time ago, regardless of any changes in gender policies.
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Hell Yes!
If you are going to make it "Equal" ten make it "Equal all the way"
BUT...then we all know that the Army is more EQUAL to some than others. Remember, Equal Opportunity "Goals" and those pesky yet nonexistent Equal Opportunity QUOTAS are only different because of location in the dictionary.
If you are going to make it "Equal" ten make it "Equal all the way"
BUT...then we all know that the Army is more EQUAL to some than others. Remember, Equal Opportunity "Goals" and those pesky yet nonexistent Equal Opportunity QUOTAS are only different because of location in the dictionary.
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