Posted on Dec 29, 2015
Should someone be denied a retirement award, after 20 years of service and 4 deployments, because they're flagged for being overweight?
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Awards
Retirement
Height and Weight
AR 600-8-22
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 107
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The HR screener reviewing your resume doesn't give $0.02 about your ribbon rack. However, that 20-yrs of service WILL catch their attention. Time to focus on what's in front of you.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Best possible response. As a guy who left with 26 years I can tell you that one better have one's head in the game twice over what we thought of in service. I started resumes 4 years before I got out to get good at them. Just one example. Want a successful civilian transition? Put your back into it and effect what YOU can effect. Your weight/award piece of the issue is very likely not the big picture view that will make you successful.
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SFC Larry Mann
Exactly, I retired 5 1/2 years ago, after 24 active years. Nobody cares about awards or military accomplishments. Get that DD214, and move on to next chapter of your life.
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If a Soldier got flagged for 600-9, it is their fault. No one made them get over weight. Complaining about it won't fix the problem and it is no one else's fault except the Soldiers.
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SFC (Join to see)
1SG Timothy Trewin false, Soldiers can and are flagged for being over weight, happens all the time in the WTBs.
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1SG Timothy Trewin
SFC (Join to see) If they are getting flagged for overweight due to issues that are medically related then that is a messed up situation. Now if they have the ability to maintain fitness and proper body weight/body fat then that is a totally different conversation.
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MSG Steve Wiersgalla
Wow 3 years full of crap. The original post "Should someone be denied a retirement award, after 20 years of service and 4 deployments, because they're flagged for being overweight?"
1. Your overweight your overweight. After 20 years you should know the standards.
2. It' an end of service award, whoppdy doo! No guarantee you are going to get one.
3. You will have a DD214 that States HONORABLE. That is the one thing we all look forward to our entire career.
I am very surprised at all of the what ifs that were brought into this thread resulting in a huge amount of very unprofessional behavior. We have rules and regulations for a reason as well as customs and courtesies. It amazes me the amount of soldiers that can't/ won't adhere to standards.
1. Your overweight your overweight. After 20 years you should know the standards.
2. It' an end of service award, whoppdy doo! No guarantee you are going to get one.
3. You will have a DD214 that States HONORABLE. That is the one thing we all look forward to our entire career.
I am very surprised at all of the what ifs that were brought into this thread resulting in a huge amount of very unprofessional behavior. We have rules and regulations for a reason as well as customs and courtesies. It amazes me the amount of soldiers that can't/ won't adhere to standards.
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I find it interesting that an APFT failure or an overweight Soldier who is FLAGGED, is still considered a combat deployable asset. Its like sending a M4 with a bent barrel to the front line for use. Its kind of a double standard I think. The Soldier is not good enough to receive something he/she earned despite the infractions to regulations, but he/she is good enough to stop a bullet.
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1LT (Join to see)
SGM Erik Marquez - perhaps I misinterpreted your comment above, but it appeared that fat and/or unfit could pull gate guard leaving qualified SMs for the real work. I post your comment in quotes here which lead me to my interpretation (with your implied suggestion that overweight SMs are unmotivated and incapable): "When DIV, BDE, or BN tasked me for 2 SM for gate guard, MP guard, head count at the DFAC, police call., or any other duty that pulled valuable resources from those filling patrol or support positions for those patrols.. darned right that overweight APFT flagged Sm has a use. Off to the tasked duty he goes... so my motivated, professional ready SM's can go on patrol, fix a vehicle, cook chow, deliver supplies. All critical jobs... all needed to be filled by physically, mentally, technically and tactically ready Soldiers."
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SGM Erik Marquez
1LT (Join to see) - " "When DIV, BDE, or BN tasked me for 2 SM for gate guard, MP guard, head count at the DFAC, police call., or any other duty that pulled valuable resources from those filling patrol or support positions for those patrols.. darned right that overweight APFT flagged Sm has a use. Off to the tasked duty he goes... so my motivated, professional ready SM's can go on patrol, fix a vehicle, cook chow, deliver supplies. All critical jobs... all needed to be filled by physically, mentally, technically and tactically ready Soldiers.""
And where does that state I think them "Overweight magically makes an SM dumb and incapable?"
Where does that say " SM can no longer aim a weapon or squeeze a trigger, recognize a threat, operate a radio, or perform PMCS of a vehicle? "
Not sure if you just want to be argumentative or not seeing this as a leader would..
Seeing as you did not dispute any of the points I actually made...
We will keep the numbers simple..
100 competent, qualified SM in the company
90 needed for the rigorous needs of patrol daily, sometimes several times a day.
Of those 100, 10 SM in the company are over body fat meaning more prone to injury and illness, more likely to become fatigued sooner than a person of a more healthy body weight.
Which 10 would you assign those light duty tasking?
If you don't answer the 10 overweight in this pretend company, well, we would disagree on that decision.
Reality is, we never have those good a numbers, and folks that in a perfect world should not go out the gate, do.
I NEVER said nor implied being over weight makes one stupid, less technically competent.
If there is no underlying medical condition, the SM who is knowledgeable on the Armys weight control standards, has been provided the knowledge and ability to eat healthy, exercise to their capability and they choose to eat un healthy and exercise only the min they can get away with.... would YOU not call them unmotivated? I did and would today.
NONE of that or anything I wrote addressed or was respective to an SM who is overweight due to an underlying medical condition ..which can be a reason for a temp weight gain if they have the ability to modify behavior and correct it. A temporary weight gain with no ability to correct it until the medical condition is corrected.
All of it was respective to the SM with a long term weight gain because they just don't care...
And where does that state I think them "Overweight magically makes an SM dumb and incapable?"
Where does that say " SM can no longer aim a weapon or squeeze a trigger, recognize a threat, operate a radio, or perform PMCS of a vehicle? "
Not sure if you just want to be argumentative or not seeing this as a leader would..
Seeing as you did not dispute any of the points I actually made...
We will keep the numbers simple..
100 competent, qualified SM in the company
90 needed for the rigorous needs of patrol daily, sometimes several times a day.
Of those 100, 10 SM in the company are over body fat meaning more prone to injury and illness, more likely to become fatigued sooner than a person of a more healthy body weight.
Which 10 would you assign those light duty tasking?
If you don't answer the 10 overweight in this pretend company, well, we would disagree on that decision.
Reality is, we never have those good a numbers, and folks that in a perfect world should not go out the gate, do.
I NEVER said nor implied being over weight makes one stupid, less technically competent.
If there is no underlying medical condition, the SM who is knowledgeable on the Armys weight control standards, has been provided the knowledge and ability to eat healthy, exercise to their capability and they choose to eat un healthy and exercise only the min they can get away with.... would YOU not call them unmotivated? I did and would today.
NONE of that or anything I wrote addressed or was respective to an SM who is overweight due to an underlying medical condition ..which can be a reason for a temp weight gain if they have the ability to modify behavior and correct it. A temporary weight gain with no ability to correct it until the medical condition is corrected.
All of it was respective to the SM with a long term weight gain because they just don't care...
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1LT (Join to see)
SGM Erik Marquez - I was not trying to be argumentative. The quote indicates that SMs overweight are for tasked duty while ... "my motivated, professional ready SM's can go on patrol, fix a vehicle, cook chow, deliver supplies. All critical jobs... all needed to be filled by physically, mentally, technically and tactically ready Soldiers." I asked you those questions to clarify what you meant, that somehow overweight SMs do not meet the "physically, mentally, technically and tactically ready Soldiers" that you refer to. It read that overweight are unmotivated and not ready for 'critical' jobs. I was confused by your statement. There were never any QUOTES in my question to you about magically dumb or anything else. Your comment makes an inference and I was seeking your clarification.
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1LT (Join to see)
SGM Erik Marquez - BTW, I see you and I were at Ft Ord same time. I was in G2 and then TCAE. Was on JRTC rotation with 9th INF RGT 'Manchus' to Chaffee. The Manchu Mile was tough; I did the 4 day march Nijmegen when I was stationed in Germany.
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I agree with the comments about the award being of no value to civilian employers. However, get out of your own damn head and think about others for a minute in your career. As posted by SSG Thomas Livingston or SSG Brian Marshall - AR 600-8-22 clearly states the Soldier can get awarded for his/her service to our nation.
Rather the Soldier wants the award or not, it's leaderships job to get off their ass and put forth the effort to request the waiver. Many people say they don't want the recognition while most do. Regardless, they deserve it. I know of a few who did not even want a retirement ceremony, but the great SGM/CSM required it because that's the right thing to do. The Soldier also deserves a retirement award.
BTW, I was never over weight, not even close, in my 25 years of service. Even up to the APFT I scored 298 (my knees could hardly handle the run at that speed anymore). And I did everything I could to ensure my Soldiers were in the best health and physical condition they could be in. I'm still doing that in my retired life. And, as long as I could help it, I ensured my Soldiers got the recognition they deserved regardless of their body composition, physical abilities etc. I read and followed the regulation.
Get off your high horse, read and follow the regulation and get the Soldier the award he/she deserves.
Wally
Rather the Soldier wants the award or not, it's leaderships job to get off their ass and put forth the effort to request the waiver. Many people say they don't want the recognition while most do. Regardless, they deserve it. I know of a few who did not even want a retirement ceremony, but the great SGM/CSM required it because that's the right thing to do. The Soldier also deserves a retirement award.
BTW, I was never over weight, not even close, in my 25 years of service. Even up to the APFT I scored 298 (my knees could hardly handle the run at that speed anymore). And I did everything I could to ensure my Soldiers were in the best health and physical condition they could be in. I'm still doing that in my retired life. And, as long as I could help it, I ensured my Soldiers got the recognition they deserved regardless of their body composition, physical abilities etc. I read and followed the regulation.
Get off your high horse, read and follow the regulation and get the Soldier the award he/she deserves.
Wally
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1SG David Lopez
Recognition and Closure means alot to those retiring from military service, whether they realize it or not. The better part of a persons adult - young life was spent Soldiering; that is worth following traditions and celebrations for the honorable service to our Nation.
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Capt Mark Strobl
MSG Wally Carmichael - I don't think anybody is riding a high horse here. For me, simply offering a perspective. And to this all, I agree with you 100%. Thanks for keeping us "in check."
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SSG Brian Marshall
Per AR 600-8-22:
1–17. Character of service
a. Personal decorations. A medal will not be awarded or presented to any individual whose entire service subsequent
to the time of the distinguished act, achievement, or service has not been honorable. The determination of
"honorable" will be based on such honest and faithful service according to the standards of conduct, courage, and duty
required by law and customs of the service of a Servicemember of the grade to whom the standard is applied.
Commanders will ensure that—
(1) Individuals on whom favorable personnel actions have been suspended are neither recommended for, nor receive
an award, decoration, or a badge during the period of the suspension.
(2) Other-than-honorable service subsequent to submission of the recommendation for an award is promptly reported
to the awards approving authority with a recommendation for appropriate action.
b. Exceptions. As an exception to paragraph 1–17a(1), Soldiers who are flagged for overweight or Army Physical
Fitness Test failure may be recommended for and presented an award based on valor and heroism. Additionally,
Soldiers who are flagged for overweight or Army Physical Fitness Test failure may be posthumously recommended for
and presented an award, decoration, or a badge when assigned to a unit engaged in combat against hostile forces and
the Soldier dies as a result of injuries sustained during combat.
c. Waiver for overweight and Army Physical Fitness Test failure flags. A waiver of the overweight or Army
Physical Fitness Test flag must be processed for length of service retirement awards to the first general officer in the
Soldier’s chain of command with award approval or disapproval authority. All waivers will be processed as separate
and distinct actions from the award recommendation, and should be submitted and adjudicated prior to submission of
the award recommendation. The approved waiver will accompany the award recommendation once submitted
Per AR 600-8-22:
1–17. Character of service
a. Personal decorations. A medal will not be awarded or presented to any individual whose entire service subsequent
to the time of the distinguished act, achievement, or service has not been honorable. The determination of
"honorable" will be based on such honest and faithful service according to the standards of conduct, courage, and duty
required by law and customs of the service of a Servicemember of the grade to whom the standard is applied.
Commanders will ensure that—
(1) Individuals on whom favorable personnel actions have been suspended are neither recommended for, nor receive
an award, decoration, or a badge during the period of the suspension.
(2) Other-than-honorable service subsequent to submission of the recommendation for an award is promptly reported
to the awards approving authority with a recommendation for appropriate action.
b. Exceptions. As an exception to paragraph 1–17a(1), Soldiers who are flagged for overweight or Army Physical
Fitness Test failure may be recommended for and presented an award based on valor and heroism. Additionally,
Soldiers who are flagged for overweight or Army Physical Fitness Test failure may be posthumously recommended for
and presented an award, decoration, or a badge when assigned to a unit engaged in combat against hostile forces and
the Soldier dies as a result of injuries sustained during combat.
c. Waiver for overweight and Army Physical Fitness Test failure flags. A waiver of the overweight or Army
Physical Fitness Test flag must be processed for length of service retirement awards to the first general officer in the
Soldier’s chain of command with award approval or disapproval authority. All waivers will be processed as separate
and distinct actions from the award recommendation, and should be submitted and adjudicated prior to submission of
the award recommendation. The approved waiver will accompany the award recommendation once submitted
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SPC Kortney Kistler
MSG (Join to see) - One of my COs didn't like me. I don't know if I rubbed him the wrong way or if he didn't like the Joes I associated with. Hell I had an uncle that lived in his home town who was a shrewd business man, maybe my uncle put the screws to someone in his family years before (small town politics). In any case he didn't do me any favors. The diamond seemed to love me, but he never went to bat for me.
The CO, who had made the jump to major during deployment, found his career cut short. Someone filled out a sworn statement against him involving the smuggling of automatic weapons to CONUS. The MPs recovered the evidence on April 1st (April Fools Day) it took a few hours to confirm that the CO being in custody wasn't a joke. I never saw him again.
I don't get it. The PL loved me The XO did as well. I was a motivated individual trying to win the war by completing whatever the task laid before me.
The CO, who had made the jump to major during deployment, found his career cut short. Someone filled out a sworn statement against him involving the smuggling of automatic weapons to CONUS. The MPs recovered the evidence on April 1st (April Fools Day) it took a few hours to confirm that the CO being in custody wasn't a joke. I never saw him again.
I don't get it. The PL loved me The XO did as well. I was a motivated individual trying to win the war by completing whatever the task laid before me.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) Apparently Berghdal's COC did not bother to look that up. my 2 cts, and happy new year!
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SFC Don Ward
SPC Kortney Kistler - You can never tell how a personality conflict will come about, or how it will reflect. Had a couple commanders, and more than a few NCO's that I could not get along with. Bided my time until I was out of the unit,
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Lot of input here... Some good some not so good, some a regurgitation of the AR's... I actually had/have put a lot of thought into this, I started out say to myself if you're fat well you're fat. After 22 years of service I look back and I remember the fat guys, but I also remember being disgusted at how some of my non fat heavy weights were treated, a guy that runs 13:30 maxes push ups and sit ups, can ruck 12 miles in way less than 4 hours.. Expert rifle, smoked sniper school, but taped over because instead of sitting in the barracks in the weekends and every evening after COB playing call of duty, they were hunting, fishing, going to the gym like it was a religion.... These guys never fell out of anything. They were always the standard bearer in uniform never looking shabby. So why should they not get a retirement or PCS award?? WHY NOT???? If they looked like they were wearing maternity uniforms, couldn't hack it physically.... Absolutely NOT! But really, the Army's height and weight system is broken and out dated. There are way better systems out there that can be used even down at the company level. Just my thoughts, I think a revamp and a reconnection with training to be leaders is in order, be Military leaders not leaders based on political environment and turmoil. Thanks for reading if you made it this far.
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PFC Elijah Rose
I personally think that we should not have a formal fitness program because it is often enforced wastefully and/or vindictively, and army culture places a high value on exersize anyway.
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CPT Tom Monahan
The tape doesn’t account for body types. I’ve seen fat long legged short torso slugs make weight with no problem but could barely pass the APFT. I’ve also seen PT Studs scoring above 270 on the APFT fail a tape test because the had long torsos and short legs.
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DD-214 that states retired under honorable conditions is all that you need. Nobody gave you a medal when you volunteered for enlistment...you walked in and you are walking out. Thanks for your service. Medals/awards are not a right. The DD214 is a medal/award that will last you a lifetime in retirement pay, VA benefits, and medical care. Civilian business don't give a darn if you are overweight or received a certain medal/award...they just see that you served honorably and they want to know what you are going to do for them...period. The reason I am not excited about medals/awards of any kind (retirement or otherwise) is that I have seen some of them handed out like candy because you were breathing and at the right place at the right time, you were looking/working to get one, or you were a certain rank. When I was overseas, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting senior leaders, officer and SNCO alike, that would be there long enough to get a medal/award and rotate out or they would go out on certain missions so they could say they were outside the wire for a medal/award then they would disappear. There has to be standards and until all of those standards are held across the board then they won't mean too much to me, retirement or otherwise.
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SFC (Join to see)
Agreed Sir. A DD-214 Honorable Discharge will get you hired. The rest is up to you.
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SSG Brian Marshall What rank is the person you are talking about? I hate to say this but if this is an E6/E7 then yes I can see it happening, but what sickens me is if it was same situation and the Solder was a CSM/ MAJ/LTC you better believe they get something awarded. This is just my opinion.
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SSG Brian Marshall
He is a SSG and yes I agree with you 110% I think the fact of his rank has a lot to do with it! If he was higher in rank I believe the flag would have been lifted if he was even flagged at all.
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SPC Josh Hagen
at my previous unit i was recommended for an ARCOM by my supervisor, section SGT and PLT SGT. 1SG was on board and when the paperwork got to my CO he downgraded it telling me because i was a PFC i did not deserve an ARCOM. my supervisor who had nearly the same bullet points as me got an ARCOM because he was a NCO, much respect goes to NCO's but to say that lower enlisted do not deserve the same award for the same work is the epitome of a failure in leadership in my opinion..
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SFC James Young
Your Opinion is very much in majority. There is a clear double standard when it comes to awards.
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I have six months left before retirement and several deployments. If I got taped right now, I'd probably bust. I guess what I'm saying is I'm very close to that example myself and I don't think I care about an award or an NCOER. If you learn anything in ACAP, you learn civilians don't care a damn about your career.
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CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
I told my Commander when I retired, I didn't need or want a retirement award, my monthly check would suffice. Dr. Wayne Dyer stated it properly when he said, some people NEED Gold Stars, other people know they did well without them.
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SGT Jason Keefer
Leadership experience - check
College degree - check
Communicates effectively in emails and interviews - check
Hired.
College degree - check
Communicates effectively in emails and interviews - check
Hired.
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SSG (Join to see)
True, having that extra piece of cloth or an additional oak leaf cluster isn't going to make a difference to your new career. As the years pass though, I believe you will appreciate having finished everything up properly. No dangling loose ends, even if they mean almost nothing to you now.
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Ahhhh.....the infamous "If you don't do this you're not going to get a retirement award" saga....I was in the same situation....39 y.o., just returning from a 8 month deployment and retiring. Company Commander and 1SG told me that I had to take an APFT to receive an end of service award. I basically told them to shove it. Family history of heart disease and I would be damned if I was going to take an APFT as the last thing just to receive an award. All kinds of pressure and threats from the Co. CDR and 1SG; then Bn CDR and SGM as to violating regulations and orders for not taking the APFT. Also that the Bn CDR was traveling to my Field Office to present the award and wanted this matter settled. I still told them in no uncertain terms that only a Chief Warrant Officer can express that it wasn't going to happen. Needless to say, there was no APFT; but there was an awards ceremony and the appropriate award (that's another story). And as if to prove my point, a few years down the road quadruple bypass. So, for me if all I got was my DD-214; then that was fine with me. Something as trivial as an APFT or over weight when you've given 20+ years defending this Nation should just be brushed aside. You don't owe the military anything anymore...the Nation owes you now. Enjoy your retirement and be glad you made it.
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