Posted on Jan 24, 2014
Should Special Forces & Spec. Ops. be exempt from certain Army Standards?
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In your opinion, do you believe these groups should have the right to be more lax? If so, with which standards should they be given privilege to waive? If you believe all standards should be followed regardless, have you honestly made proper on-the-spot corrections toward any of these members?
Standards
Special Operations
Policy
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 20
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Sometimes in theater or in the field I roll my sleeve cuff once inwards to expose my wrists when it's really hot! It's so naughty, but I can't help how much that one little infraction makes me so happy.
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I saw my 1SG try to correct an SF SSG once, the SF SSG pointed to his tab and said "Different food chain brah" (that is exactly as he said it), and he walked off. I am not going to lie, as a 19 year old PFC I thought that was really cool.
As for grooming standards, there have been stretches of time during my 1st deployment we did not shave, or worry about other trivial things like that. Its war.
As for grooming standards, there have been stretches of time during my 1st deployment we did not shave, or worry about other trivial things like that. Its war.
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SSG Robert Webster
The SF SSG in this case should have been reported to his chain of command. This is the type of situation that was addressed earlier in this chain of comments. I do know that if this SSG had made this type of statement to any of the 1SG's that I served with, he (the SSG) would have significant issues with his Team Sergeant and NCO chain up to and to include his Group CSM. I remember a similar incident that occurred in the late '70s, the SF SSG involved in that incident ended up being busted to E5, striped of his SF Qualification, and ended up in my unit with the same 1SG that he disrespected and thumbed his nose at. One interesting note on this case is that if the SF SSG had stated '1SG, I fall under a different chain of command.', he may have gotten away with it, to a certain point. I am sure that he would still have caught flack about his actions, but would not have gotten busted like he did. Another take away is that then as well as now, there are a number of SOF NCO's in the conventional units that support world contingency missions. Just because you do not see the SF tab or Ranger tab on that NCO's uniform does not give someone the right to do as these NCO's did. I did forget to mention that the 1SG in the case that I cited happened to be SF qualified, and had also served on the same ODA as the SF Bn CSM at that time. Then as well as now the Old Boy Network can and will come back and bite you on the backside if you are in the wrong.
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Theres always a method to the madness and sometimes its just better to not and try to figure it out
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Situation dictates. If they're in garrison they should be held to the same standards. Deployed, no. They need to do whatever their operations require them to do.
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I think it depends on what standards you are referring to.
For example, down range there was a minimum vehicle requirement for personnel to leave the FOB, I don't remember the exact number but certainly not small enough for a CA team or ODA to be able to "legally" leave the FOB. So special exemptions were made. Operationally speaking the SOF community will always play by slightly different set of rules that are pretty much requirement for them to even be able to fulfill their mission
If we are talking 670-1, being SOF alone doesnt exempt you from these rules, but 670-1 can be altered and waived with the appropriate command authority.
My thought on it is, you are always going to have different commands, who have different rules, some make you wear a PT belt, some don't, some make you put cats eyes on the back of your hat and others don't, some will authorize the wear of company shirts with PTs and other will only allow the ARMY shirt. I don't really think its anything worth getting wrapped around the axel about
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Or, option B, if a standard is considered a detriment or unnecessary by a high speed, high performing unit, does it need to be a standard at all?
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In the Army Commanders can prescribe the uniform. If mission dictates then certain relaxed grooming standards can be in effect. If there is a reason for it then I agree that SF or Delta Operatives should be allowed to blend into their work environment.
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I think your question is a matter of perspective. Yes, they should be given (and are) the latitude to modify particular regulations when it comes to aspects of appearance such as uniform and in some cases shaving and hair. This is not being "lax". However, the personnel should also follow normal regs under a training command unless they are under specific orders.
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I personally think that Special Forces, or any elite force for that matter, should maintain proper military bearing unless the operating environment requires otherwise. For Example: SF guys are known to grow out their facial hair so that they can not only "blend in" to the civilian populous, but also to gain respect from them as well.
However in garrison, they should be required (and I believe that they are) to maintain the same standards as the rest of us.
Also, just because I wouldn't give an "on the spot correction" to them, has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has more to do with personal survival, and my lack of authority.
However in garrison, they should be required (and I believe that they are) to maintain the same standards as the rest of us.
Also, just because I wouldn't give an "on the spot correction" to them, has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has more to do with personal survival, and my lack of authority.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SGTs Blackburn and Brassfield,
If there is one thing that my command knows about me, it is that I am not afraid to correct something in a tactful and professional way. That being said, in the situation of correcting an SF NCO (or officer) there are many extenuating circumstances that I may not be aware of. I know that some of those guys have to have a beard by the time the arrive in theater, which obviously requires them to grow in during the trainup stage of the mission. Also, they are not known to abuse their SF status to cut corners in regulations, and therefore I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
Thank you for your responses, it is very helpful to know that in spite of the negative counselings I have gotten from 1 NCO in particular, there are NCO's who understand that rank does not mean that they are above reproach. I definitely have a greater respect for the NCOs that have to problem being corrected (respectufully) by a junior ranking soldier.
If there is one thing that my command knows about me, it is that I am not afraid to correct something in a tactful and professional way. That being said, in the situation of correcting an SF NCO (or officer) there are many extenuating circumstances that I may not be aware of. I know that some of those guys have to have a beard by the time the arrive in theater, which obviously requires them to grow in during the trainup stage of the mission. Also, they are not known to abuse their SF status to cut corners in regulations, and therefore I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
Thank you for your responses, it is very helpful to know that in spite of the negative counselings I have gotten from 1 NCO in particular, there are NCO's who understand that rank does not mean that they are above reproach. I definitely have a greater respect for the NCOs that have to problem being corrected (respectufully) by a junior ranking soldier.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
That being said, when I was in AIT in the field, there was an SF transition soldier with us who refused to wear his PC. He wore his Beret (Green of course). When my PSG told him that he wasn't authorized to wear it, and showed him the reg, he said something like, "Well why don't you take it off for me then, Seargent." He wore that Green Beret until he left.
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SGT (Join to see)
Your PSG should have counseled him and if he showed up again with his GB on, UCMJ him.
Nothing you have done in your career, gives you the right to disrespect a senior. I have seem GB lose their tab for things like this. Disrespecting a senior is not tolerated, especially when it involves an NCO outside of the SOF community. My group CSM takes that very seriously. If you disrespect someone from the regular Army side he takes it personal. He believes that you just misrepresented the entire SOF community and he affects your life accordingly.
The GB you were talking about in your AIT was trying to act tough around some regular Army IET soldiers. Had his SF chain of command been around he would have said roger and took his GB off, guarantee it. If not he would have been educated severely, exactly what you PSG should have done.
Dont let that dude influence what you think the SOF community is, whether you think it was "cool" what he did or if you think all GB are a**holes. Neither is true!
If you come to the SOF community with either of those attitudes you will be leaving with less rank or worse.
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SSG (Join to see)
As a junior enlisted, there's nothing wrong with correcting someone that's higher ranking.....AS LONG AS you know what you're talking about.
As CPT (Join to see) stated, different commands allow different things so you need to be aware of that. In most cases you'll generally be met with appreciation if someones tapes are mess up or they've got strings they didn't see.
Then there are other things that are dependent on unit or job field. Most soldiers aren't allowed to wear anything other than a tan t-shirt, but aviation, fuelers, and a few others are authorized to wear the green ones. Trying to correct things like that without knowing are what could get your butt in a sling.
As CPT (Join to see) stated, different commands allow different things so you need to be aware of that. In most cases you'll generally be met with appreciation if someones tapes are mess up or they've got strings they didn't see.
Then there are other things that are dependent on unit or job field. Most soldiers aren't allowed to wear anything other than a tan t-shirt, but aviation, fuelers, and a few others are authorized to wear the green ones. Trying to correct things like that without knowing are what could get your butt in a sling.
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SGT (Join to see)
I find this amusing. They are not soldiers JUST LIKE everyone else. Their mission is completely different from yours.
Think of it this way do you think DS should have to be in the exact same uniform as the privates they train. Should they have to have a battle buddy everywhere they go. Should they have to have a camelbak and weapon with them at all times? Should they have to shave their heads every week? Should they be prohibited from going home, to the px, or from eating outside foods? NO!!!!
They have a completely different job in basic than a private does even though you are both soldiers. Thats the difference between SF and CF. They have a different mission and they have the training and also have earned the right to be on a different level than you, just like a DS!
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SFC Michael Hartwig
I'll have to say I have never seen anyone in the SOF community in garrison with a beard or even stubble. Most likely because if they are growing it out for a mission they stay out of uniform.
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