Posted on May 12, 2016
SPC Human Resources Specialist
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This weekend, my unit is conducting a battalion FTX. During this weekend we will be qualifying via an EST 3000 simulation. Personally, I would like to shoot live rounds down range. Do you think soldiers in the Reserves should be sacrificing real world experience?
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Responses: 32
1stSgt Sergeant Major/First Sergeant
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Shooting the EST (ISMT) for USMC, is not the same as qualifying on the 500 meter line. The center of gravity is different, the recoil is different and there is a large black air hose hanging off of the weapon. There is no replacement for live fire. ISMT can be used for training scenarios or to maintain proficiency of team leaders in decision making and target selection and engagement. But nothing will every adequately simulate running from the 500 to the 200 with a bayonet fixed and then engaging targets in the prone.
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SPC Burt Epps
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So the Army is advocating playing video games rather than live fire qualification? How do you simulate that little puff of smoke if you have a little to much oil on your weapon? That stinging in your eyes.....The feel of the trigger on your weapon, the recoil of YOUR weapon, the conditions that you encounter not only on the range but in a live fire situation, I don't see that being replicated on a video game. I remember the dummy grenades in basic training, and having blank adapters on our weapons during training exercises, but never had experience on a simulator for weapons training or qualification.
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SPC Military Police Officer (Mp)
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This is ridiculous that this is what the army has come too.
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SGM Military Police
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No.
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CSM Chuck Stafford
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One trains with the resources available - time, land, manpower, equipment, etc.

That said, I concur that live rounds is the better experience:
Nothing beats firing, cleaning and maintaining the weapons you will take downrange with you. Additionally, the ancillary training benefits to the units leadership:
Obtaining and transporting ammo, securing the range, running the range safely, TLP, etc -- it all adds up to building a competent team
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CSM David Heidke
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SFC Management
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If I'm not mistaken (it has happend before) 350-1 specifies how NG and USAR alternate between KD range and 25m alt course. I also believe it does specify (again my be mistaken going off of memory) the circumstances that a EST may or may not be used for qual. That may have been a policy memo?? A lot comes into play with funding allocation i.e.: are you a TDA unit or MTOE unit etc.
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SSG Supply Sergeant (S4)
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Your memory is fine.
AR 350-1, Appendix G Army Training Programs, G-25, a, (3)
Training on simulators and sub caliber ranges is encouraged before qualification, but do not replace the requirements for live fire qualification.
The EST 200 is mentioned twice. Individuals in duty positions not assigned individual weapons and familiarization with weapons not designated or assigned.
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SFC Management
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SSG (Join to see) Thanks. I knew there was something in there. Not to bad with not even having a cup of coffee that early in the morning..lol.
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SGT Former Rn
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I think reservists should NOT be sacrificing real world experience, however, that being said, and dependent whom takes office in January, the military budget may be slashed down to the bare minimum and this might be one of the many ways to do that.
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SFC (Non-Rated)
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There is no substitute for shooting live rounds. It's like letting someone have a driver's license just because they can drive in Gran Turismo. You can teach the fundamentals to a certain degree using it. However, real guns have quirks, so does the ammo. You need to shoot YOUR assigned weapon to get familiar with it so that when you get into a fight, you know how that weapon operates.
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SPC Kenneth Koerperich
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When I was in Reserves, we got just enough ammo. Did ROIC @ Pendelton, along w/ a couple of Gunnies for day fire/zero & quals. We had no problems. When night came, for live night fire exercise, due to the Marine restrictions on ROIC hours, I had to leave the range. Left it w/ what I thought was a capable Sgt. But no, 1 hour after I left, first group through the lines, somebody didn't clear 1 SM's wpn before heading down range to check targets. That SM, I guess, from the report I read, lagged behind, & instead of laying the weapon down, w/ a clear chamber, dropped it while Live & shot another SM in the back, whom later died. Needless to say, the ROIC Sgt got relieved, the Gunnies where PeO'd @ the Reserve Unit. We/Unit was no longer allowed to Live fire anymore. They started using the computer systems. Luckily I was off duty when the incident happened. Sorry for the SM that was lost, but, if most Reserve Units were like the 1 I was in, sorry, don't mean to offend, WAY to many Reservists are IDIOTS. Probably why they wanted the 1 combat vet in the unit as ROIC & Wpn trainer all the time. I rarely got to train on the Hospital floor as I was always trying to get the 980 man Unit up to snuff w/ wpn quals & wpns training. So, I can possible see why they are being put into sims instead of Live. To many events like the 1 above makes you think a bit about how to do future quals. What's better/smarter..... As the SSG stated, way to many COD wanna be's trying to be hooah! & actually don't know jack shit & cost/cause harm to others.

JMO!
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